Forgive if this is a noob question. I have seen it mentioned several times on the forum that it is common practice for some Swiss brands to outsource the vast majority of their partmarking and labor to Asia, only to do the final casing and inspection in Switzerland to make it qualify as "Swiss Made". Is there a handy thread or website where I can find information on which companies do this, and where watch companies source their parts have their labor done, etc.?
Which "Swiss Made" Brands Are Mostly Chinese?
Sullus
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The short answer to OP question is no - there is no way to find out where parts and labor originate for vast majority of "swiss made" watches. For one, those that do rely on Asian labor and part sources, are not keen to advertise that fact. Currently "Swiss Made" allows companies to charge a premium price, but I expect that vale to deteriorate over-time. Fact is you can get better made Asian watches (from Seiko to Seagull) that some of the so called "Swiss" ones.
To a degree, you can use brands' pedigree, reputation and pricing as some indicator of part\labor sourcing. While this is not based on facts, I'd bet good money that most brands I can tell about origins w relative accuracy:
- 95%+ or close to it Swiss - Rolex, PP, AP, VC, Breguet, Zenith, JLC, Omega, Breitling, Longines, etc. (granted many of these may use China to source cases, dials, crystal, etc.)
- mostly Swiss but with a healthy doze of Chinese involvement - mid-tiers like Hamilton, Oris, Tissot, Raymond Weil, etc
- Mostly Asian sourced except movement, final assembly and perhaps one part to get to 60% of value - all low-end, so called "Swiss Made" watches - Stuhrling, ROtary, Invicta, etc...
If you check FH requirements for "Swiss Made" (FH - Swiss made: the only true reference), there is a dozen loopholes one can exploit to get it the label with minimal Swiss involvement.
I think "Swiss Made" is over-rated and largely meaningless. I mean - Lange is made in Germany and is arguably on par w holy-trinity of Swiss makers. Glashutte Original and Nomos are German brands that blow-out comparably prices Swiss competitors. Panerai is "Swiss Made" but is an Italian brand.
Honestly, I'd take a nice Seagull sporting "Made in CHina" proudly over virtually any sub $500 Swiss made BS (like Rotary or Stuhrling Original), and would take nicer Seiko (JDMs) over many entry-luxury Swiss brands
To a degree, you can use brands' pedigree, reputation and pricing as some indicator of part\labor sourcing. While this is not based on facts, I'd bet good money that most brands I can tell about origins w relative accuracy:
- 95%+ or close to it Swiss - Rolex, PP, AP, VC, Breguet, Zenith, JLC, Omega, Breitling, Longines, etc. (granted many of these may use China to source cases, dials, crystal, etc.)
- mostly Swiss but with a healthy doze of Chinese involvement - mid-tiers like Hamilton, Oris, Tissot, Raymond Weil, etc
- Mostly Asian sourced except movement, final assembly and perhaps one part to get to 60% of value - all low-end, so called "Swiss Made" watches - Stuhrling, ROtary, Invicta, etc...
If you check FH requirements for "Swiss Made" (FH - Swiss made: the only true reference), there is a dozen loopholes one can exploit to get it the label with minimal Swiss involvement.
I think "Swiss Made" is over-rated and largely meaningless. I mean - Lange is made in Germany and is arguably on par w holy-trinity of Swiss makers. Glashutte Original and Nomos are German brands that blow-out comparably prices Swiss competitors. Panerai is "Swiss Made" but is an Italian brand.
Honestly, I'd take a nice Seagull sporting "Made in CHina" proudly over virtually any sub $500 Swiss made BS (like Rotary or Stuhrling Original), and would take nicer Seiko (JDMs) over many entry-luxury Swiss brands
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random related.
are the different Doxa labels related beyond the name?
Is it useful? Not especially. But it is interesting to consider, and something that I've been curious about.
As it is right now, my collection doesn't have any watches that are "Swiss" in any sense, so my question isn't out of a place of snobbery, if that's the question that you're probing around.
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If I would reply the way your post begs to, this thread would go to hell rather quickly. So I won't, because too many threads have been locked. Let it be known that in my opinion, your reply wasn't worth the time it took you to write it.
Btw, I am looking at my Sea Dweller and the "Swiss Made" on my dial... Then your post... All I can do is shake my head.
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You can't be curious about things. Shame on you for wondering where a watch was made or how much of it was actually made in Switzerland. Don't you know that such concerns or inquiries are old fashioned nowadays? Just be content that a Swiss based watch says Swiss made in spite of the fact that we all "know" that at least 40% of the VALUE of the watch is derived from some Asian source. Snicker, snicker... Even if the Swiss won't admit it we know the truth.
Shame on you for being such a xenophobic snob.
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I would put Omega and Longines closer to your second tier, together with the likes of Oris and RW, than with Rolex, or the Trinity. In particular, I don't think your caveat for the 95% category applies to Rolex or the Trinity, but it likely does apply to Omega and Longines.
I agree with this from a Longines perspective. Omega is probably closer to the others mentioned than Longines though.
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Still far from 95% by volume, probably closer by value.
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incorrect.
40% could be; not is.
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For those for whom this is an emotional issue, I wonder if the issue would be seen differently if 'Made in China' were followed by 'But by persons of Swiss (and/or German) heritage. No person of Chinese origin has worked on these watches."
Really, what does "Made in X (Anywhere)" really mean today?
And what is one really looking for in the answer? And, do what with that answer, if found?
'
Really, what does "Made in X (Anywhere)" really mean today?
And what is one really looking for in the answer? And, do what with that answer, if found?
'
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Point is... the OP had/has a valid question and responses have varied from "why should you care" to "it could be as much as 40%". Dismissing a question or offering wild speculation are irresponsible responses.
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Hmm, I wasn't tiering them on quality or perceived ranking, just expected usage of Swiss parts and labor.
I'm honestly not very familiar w manufacturing of watches and the industry (hence the disclaimer that onlu my personal opinion was being given), but do you think companies like Omega and Longines make significant use of Asian parts? (beyond obvious like crystals, or bracelets). My thinking was that they maximize use of Swiss materials and labor to justify pricing and image they've built. I'd be curious to find out if actually not true.
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I was "just sayin'", if you're going to make a point about irresponsible responses, then you should mind not giving an inaccurate one yourself.
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I think that for majority of population, it's a brand\image issue more than anything else. Many (myself included) would happily walk into BMW\Audi\MB dealership to get a German car, even though assembly may be i US or Canada or Mexico. But on some level - German cars have built a "superior" image. Same w Swiss watches.
The problem is that community insiders know how little "Swiss Made" means in some cases.
It may take some time, but I expect "Made in China" may very well have a rennaisance of sorts. Chinese are known for their craftsmanship and attention to detail (whether it's dealing w art or something as crazy as engraving on grain of rice). But in recent decades, because of outsourcing and focus on minimal cost production processes, the CHinese got a bad rep (not entirely undeserved) for quality of their products. I expect once outsourcing pulls back a bit and salaries start to get closer to parity on global scale, Made in CHina may mean same as Made in Japan does today. I certainly would not hesitate to get any CHinese artisanal product.
Back to original question though - I don't care if the watchmaker making my watch is an old Chinese men, a Swiss woman, a Russian or Italian artisan or even American engineer, as long as they pour their skills and soul into the watch.
I do however care (and get upset), when a brand charges enormous premium just because a mass-produced, machine-made piece undergoes final assembly and QC by Swiss citizens. In other words, CHinese artisan >>> Swiss assembly worker
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