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2434 Vostok Movement vs. ETA 2824-2

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Foucault71

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Hello

I currently have Steinhart watch with ETA 2824-2 which costed me just about the same as Vostok Europe Ekranoplan would.

Now Im thinking about buying Ekranoplan and I was wondering, since Ekranoplan is about same price range, how is the movement quality compared to my current ETA one? Am I upgrading or downgrading movementwise?

ps. I tried to compare specs but my techinal vocabulary regarding watches is very poor :roll:
 
#2 ·
First - I suppose you talk about Vostok 2432 (I think that's inside Ekranoplan)?
From technical aspect ETA has a quick-set date and hacking function more than Vostok. Vostok has day/nigh indicator (24H) more. The speed of ETA is 28800 oscillation per hour of the balance, Vostok is much slower - 19800. The speed is usually connected to the accuracy, but I have to admit that my 2416 Vostoks are comparable to my ETA 2824-2 based Tissot as far as accuracy is concerned. Both could be manual wound. Finish of ETA is usually better (which is mostly related with the good view) and overall ETA looks more cultivated. At the other hand Vostok is very rugged and spartan. If you change frequently watches, you'll hate date setting of Vostok and lack of hacking for fine-tune the time. There is no better for me, they are just very different.
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
Hi

That was very nice info, cleared a lot for me. The lack of hacking seconds is bit of a downside I have to admit, but if the accuracy isn't much worse Im sure I wont keep myself from switching to Ekranoplan.
 
#4 ·
Vostok 2432 is actually a better finished and somewhat upgraded version of the Vostok 2416, their mainstay automatic movement. It's used in Vostok-Europe watches, as well as some high-end Vostoks.

In my experience, the ordinary Vostok 2416 is very accurate, not too far off from a typical ETA 2824-2, and sometimes even better. I have two 2416s, both around +15/day.

The ETA does have quick-set date and hacking, and the Vostok doesn't. There's a way to fairly easily advance the date on a Vostok, though. To me, the beat-rate issue is overrated. The most accurate mechanical watch I've ever owned is a 19800bph Vostok with a 2409 movement.
 
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#5 · (Edited)
A lot of it depends on the which grade of 2824-2 is being used and how well the company regulates them.

I have a diver with the base grade 2824-2 and it was almost exactly (in terms of accuracy) the same as the 2432 in the vostok-europe I had.

At worst I think you will have comparable accuracy and the eta will have the added features of hacking and quickset date.
 
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Discussion starter · #6 ·
pyjujiop said:
...
The ETA does have quick-set date and hacking, and the Vostok doesn't. There's a way to fairly easily advance the date on a Vostok, though.
...
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Hi

I didn't realize there was also difference in date adjustment, never seen any other system than the one I have on the ETA (Not been into watches long).

Could someone quickly brief me how the date works in Vostok then? Or maybe give the name of the system/link I can google myself.

Thanks
 
#7 ·
Foucault71 said:
Hi

I didn't realize there was also difference in date adjustment, never seen any other system than the one I have on the ETA (Not been into watches long).

Could someone quickly brief me how the date works in Vostok then? Or maybe give the name of the system/link I can google myself.

Thanks
Click to expand...
You have to change the time till it goes to midnight and the date changes. Then turn the hands back to 9:00, and forward again to midnight. Repeat till you get to the current date.
 
#8 ·
Back in the old days (when the Vostok base movement was designed) most people owned only one watch, so a quick-changing date wasn't a high design priority as it would only be necessary to shuttle the time back and forth over midnight once every couple of months. Then came battery-powered watches, in which down-time while looking for a replacement battery increased the frequencey of date advances. Also the now-common day/date function is very hard to manage without quick-change. And now with the renaissance of mechanical watches (which is why we're all here in this forum) multiple watch ownership is common so a quick-change becomes a high priority.

I personally never let the lack of quick-change stand in the way of a watch purchase. And I don't use a winding machine either. It's all part of the fun.
 
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#9 ·
Chascomm said:
Back in the old days (when the Vostok base movement was designed) most people owned only one watch, so a quick-changing date wasn't a high design priority as it would only be necessary to shuttle the time back and forth over midnight once every couple of months.
Click to expand...
Completely agree with that, that's why I love my Vostoks regardless of pain-in-the-a** date set mechanism.
But if we stay in ETA vs Vostok, there is one more thing to consider - servicing. ETA is a hi-beat movement, which most probably will require more frequent service due to higher friction (I own some low-beat Poljot and Vostoks, being not serviced before they reach me, i.e. for decades, and still working). But at the other hand ETA is so common, virtually everywhere around the globe you will find a watchmaker who will service it. With Vostok you can face issues depending of where you live (mostly irrational reasons will push the watchmakers to deny to open a Russian watch) and it's possible to spend some time finding the right watchmaker.
 
#10 · (Edited)
sci said:
ETA is a hi-beat movement, which most probably will require more frequent service due to higher friction
Click to expand...
I know you're trying to rationalize this and that's commendable - but you've just made an assumption that is fatally flawed. The ETA 2824-2 doesn't have more or less "friction" than a higher or lower beat movement. It's this simple - I've got ETA's that run a plus or minus a few seconds per day and some that do that per week. Rolex used the 2824 in it's Tudor line. The Ruskies are OK - but they aren't comparable on any level. e
 
#11 ·
enough said:
I know you're trying to rationalize this and that's commendable - but you've just made an assumption that is fatally flawed. The ETA 2824-2 doesn't have more or less "friction" than a higher or lower beat movement. It's this simple - I've got ETA's that run a plus or minus a few seconds per day and a some that do that per week. Rolex used the 2824 in it's Tudor line. The Ruskies are OK - but they aren't comparable on any level. e
Click to expand...
I don't understand. How can a higher beat movement not have more friction and thus more wear than a lower beat movement? How significant that wear is over the life of the watch is certainly debatable, but not that a higher beat has more friction.

Also, you can't extrapolate accuracy in any movement type--be it Swiss or Russian or Japanese--based on one or two you had that was very accurate or very inaccurate There's nothing even remotely scientific or statistically valid about that. :-s
 
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#12 ·
My assumption is based on a simple calculation. Both watches will measure five years in period of five years (that's what I assume a normal service period), but the anchor will hit the balance wheel in ETA 1.261.440.000 times, while in Vostok for the same 5 years it would be 867.240.000 times. The number of spinnings of the balance wheel will be the same amount of course - 1.4b for ETA and 0.8b for Vostok. From pure quantity point of view - 1.2 billion movements is more than 0.8 billion, right ((just like 28800 is more than 19800) ?
No one says ETA 2824-2 is a bad movement or that Vostok is better. ETA is more expensive and more cultivated for sure, plus has quick-set and hacking. But let's say it like this:
Can I wear both of them without doubts that they will suddenly break - yes.
Is the practical precision comparable (talking about standard grade of ETA of course) - yes.
Can I switch from ETA to Vostok powered watch without feeling "downgraded" - it highly depends of the watch brands, materials and design plus some irrational factors like heritage/history. I personally can.
Do I have both - yes and I like them both. Like one loves his mom and his wife, but differently :)
Now between Steinhard and Vostok-Europe. For me both companies are equally no-one in terms of history, tradition and image. Both seem to provide nice mechanical watches, good quality of materials, nice design and affordable price. It's a matter of taste now.
 
#13 ·
Friction - You may want to review the actual defintion. If you're trying to imply that the ETA will have more cumulative wear over time - wrong again. The design, execution and materials; and actual measurements reveal the opposite.

With regard to accuracy - it's hard to consider any movement that doesn't utilize Nivarox (or the equivalent) as a quality, modern timepiece. e
 
Discussion starter · #14 ·
Thanks for answers, especially sci, great points there. I think Im swapping to Ekranoplan.

I will borrow this thread for further question:

It says on the Vostok site that Ekranoplan has "integrated silicon strap". Does this mean it isn't as easy to change or not changable at all? I really dislike rubbery straps and would like to change it to leather (or even metal) one.
 
#15 · (Edited)
enough said:
Friction - You may want to review the actual defintion. If you're trying to imply that the ETA will have more cumulative wear over time
Click to expand...
Agree, this is what I mean. In English, it is really more correct to be called "Wear" instead of "Friction".

The design, execution and materials; and actual measurements reveal the opposite.
Click to expand...
Disagree! I am not aware of such a complex comparison in a scientific/technical document. I don't expect either movements to fail due to wear over a lifetime exploitation, but I can bet that without proper servicing/lubrication the wear of high-beat movement will be higher.
Please, read HERE, section "Balance Wheel & Mainspring Size, and Beat Rate" the following:

The advantages of fast-beat (28,800 v/h and 36,000 v/h) are obvious: better isochronism, and better performance in both vertical and horizontal positions even with minimal adjustment or no adjustment at all -- one of the reasons fast-beat has been almost universally adopted by mass-producers. In fully-adjusted fast-beat watches positional adjustments are naturally less laborious. The disadvantages are the insidious problems of greater friction, stress, and wear -- not just on the escapement where it is obvious, but throughout the wheel train and in the winding systems of automatic movements.

and also:

Taken all together, this means that fast-beat movements have shorter service intervals, and the greater rate of wear necessitates more frequent parts replacements.

wrong again
Click to expand...
I don't like to be "wrong again". To "disagree" is one thing, to classify "wrong" without providing rational arguments is another.

To Foucault71, if you can afford it (as it seems you are choosing one XOR another), compare both watches for couple of months (precision, look and feel, comfort) and then decide which one to keep. If I was at your place according to this choice, I couldn't make it so easy :)
 
#16 · (Edited)
Re: Wrong again....

I assume by all this you are saying that higher speeds lead to higher wear. Well let's look at this....

Let me see here, in the 28,800 bph movement, the forth wheel rotates at 1 rpm (the second hand goes once around the dial each minute), the center wheel rotates at 1/60 rpm (one revolution every 60 minutes), and the third wheel rotates at some speed between the two, governed by the ratio of teeth on its pinion to teeth on the gear wheel.

In a 18,000 bph movement, the forth wheel rotates at, let's see... oh, yes 1 rpm, the same speed as before, and the the second wheel is rotating at the same speed as well. And provided that the ratio of pinion teeth to gear teeth on the third wheel is the same for both the high beat and low beat movements, its speed will also be the same.

So, in the high load areas of the movement, (barrel, center, thirds and forth wheels) the rotational speed is the same. Ergo, the wear is the same.*

The escape wheel on any movement rotates at a speed governed by two factors: 1) the beat rate, and 2) the ratio of teeth on the escapement to teeth on the pinion. So, you cannot generalize and say that there will be more wear in a high beat movement than in a low beat movement, because you cannot generalize that a high beat escape wheel rotates faster or slower than a low beat escape wheel.

The balance axle is almost completely unloaded, so it will see very little wear, no matter how fast it oscillates.

Now, to further debunk your ascertation, wear is also dependent on lubrication, and choice of lubrication is governed by how much load is place on the two moving surfaces and how fast they move relative to one another. A diesel engine will not work long or well with 10W5 oil nor will your 4 cyclinder Japanese ricecar work well or long with 10W15 oil.

Same with watches.

Watch oils are designed to work well in movements operating in the 18,000 to 28,800 range, some 36,000 bph watches may require different oil, but the wear will not necessarily be greater.

Then of course you have not factored in the fact the Russian movements tend to have softer pinions** which everyone know do not handle wear as well as harder pinions. Or, how concenteric are the axis of bores of the upper and lower jewels, and the numerous other tiny "quallity" issued that can affect wear in mechanical devises....

sci said:
Agree, this is what I mean. In English, it is really more correct to be called "Wear" instead of "Friction".

Disagree! I am not aware of such a complex comparison in a scientific/technical document. I don't expect either movements to fail due to wear over a lifetime exploitation, but I can bet that without proper servicing/lubrication the wear of high-beat movement will be higher.
Please, read HERE, section "Balance Wheel & Mainspring Size, and Beat Rate" the following:

The advantages of fast-beat (28,800 v/h and 36,000 v/h) are obvious: better isochronism, and better performance in both vertical and horizontal positions even with minimal adjustment or no adjustment at all -- one of the reasons fast-beat has been almost universally adopted by mass-producers. In fully-adjusted fast-beat watches positional adjustments are naturally less laborious. The disadvantages are the insidious problems of greater friction, stress, and wear -- not just on the escapement where it is obvious, but throughout the wheel train and in the winding systems of automatic movements.

and also:

Taken all together, this means that fast-beat movements have shorter service intervals, and the greater rate of wear necessitates more frequent parts replacements.

I don't like to be "wrong again". To "disagree" is one thing, to classify "wrong" without providing rational arguments is another.

To Foucault71, if you can afford it (as it seems you are choosing one XOR another), compare both watches for couple of months (precision, look and feel, comfort) and then decide which one to keep. If I was at your place according to this choice, I couldn't make it so easy :)
Click to expand...
____________________
* True there are going to be some differences in load, and therefore wear, but this variations are negligible. And the barrel's rotational speed is governed by the nuber of teeth on the barrel, not the balance speed.

** In my experience.
 
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#19 ·
The escape wheel on any movement rotates at a speed governed by two factors: 1) the beat rate, and 2) the ratio of teeth on the escapement to teeth on the pinion. So, you cannot generalize and say that there will be more wear in a high beat movement than in a low beat movement, because you cannot generalize that a high beat escape wheel rotates faster or slower than a low beat escape wheel.
Click to expand...
Here is an interesting example: The ETA 2878 is a 4 Hz (28,800 bph) movement, its sister is the 2879, a 3 Hz (21,600 bph) movement. The only parts that are different between these two movements are the 1) mainspring, 2) balance assembly, 3) escape wheel, and 4) forth wheel.

To get the movement to operate at a lower frequency, ETA reduced the number of escapement teeth on the escape wheel, this actually speeds up the rotational speed of that wheel, then reduced the gear ratio between the escape pinion and the forth wheel gear to maintain its rpm.

Interesting, no?
 
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Chascomm
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