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Low SPY HAQ with GPS or Radio

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whiskthecat

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Sorry if this has been asked before, I did make an attempt to search the forum but couldn't find my exact question. If I found something close it was from years back with unsatisfactory answers.

I am looking for an accurate (preferably solar) watch that also has the ability to set the time itself either from radio or gps. I am trying to keep my budget under $1000
As of right now I have a JDM Casio Lineage Solar MultiBand 6 (LCW-M170D-1A) that I am quite happy with but if it goes a few days without sync due to bad weather or my negligence it can already be a second or more off which is unacceptable for my purposes. It is specified as typical +-15s per month quartz.

So far the best thing I have come across is a Citizen Satellite Wave EcoDrive (CC3005-85E) That is specified as +-5s per month and receives time via GPS and can be had new for around $600. It is slightly upsetting to know that it doesn't automatically handle DST and you must occasionally add leap seconds but I suppose I can live with that.

Please let me know if you guys are aware of anything better than +-5s per month with radio or GPS (also preferably solar).
 
#2 ·
Why don't you just get a legit HAQ? Those stay on track whether they get a signal or not.

As for DST, that seems ambitious. How would a watch know where you are and whether or not that place acknowledges DST? Plus, DST can be changed at any time. George Bush changed DST to be where it currently is (I think). Presumably anyone else could change it again. Not to mention places inside and outside the US that don't even use such a thing.
 
#3 ·
The Satellite Wave line of watches that you have already discovered is your best bet at the moment (especially if you manage to acquire a titanium version, as the more common steel version is quite heavy).

The increased accuracy may not reach HAQ territory but it is significant for the very reason you observe. There is no significant drift between syncs. I have radio controlled watches that drift so much over the course of a few hours that even with their daily sync they cannot be relied upon as über precise timepieces. Citizen's F150 movement, by contrast, needs to sync just once per week to ensure it's still within a second of true time. And I find it syncs very quickly and very reliably (even indoors and a couple of yards away from a window!).

There are, perhaps, a couple of alternatives :

1. Morgenwerk - a true HAQ with GPS sync and an SPY of just 0.75. It isn't solar powered but comes with a charging cradle. You still have to adjust for DST and leap seconds and the platform is not without its issues. Search this forum for relevant threads.

2. Did you know that a radio controlled G-Shock can be regulated? This may require a bit of skill, patience and luck, but you could potentially reduce the daily drift of such a watch to within acceptable levels.
 
#4 ·
I hate to say it, but Apple watch.

The Breitling Exospace is HAQ and can sync with a phone via Bluetooth.
Not sure if the app uses the phone time or NTP.
Phone time is usually wrong because it comes from the carrier, who don't seem that fussed about the time. It will keep you within a second or so though.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
I wasn't aware there was a trimming option for casio watches. I will definitely look into that as I have an electronics lab at my disposal. The triple source Casio is interesting as well.
I am in agreement that DST is stupid but until everyone around me stops using it I am stuck with it. Radio watches have a DST bit so there is no problem there. I don't see a reason why a GPS watch could not have a pre-loaded map that corresponds the current location to whether or not that area uses DST, an On/Off/Auto option would future proof any potential changes to the map.
Apple watch is a no-go for me as I struggle to keep my smart phone charged with its 3 day battery life, forget 18hrs.
The Morgenwerk might be more acceptable with a 3 month lifespan.
 
#8 ·
GPS watches often include time zone maps, but DST is trickier, in that it's got the calendar aspect. Time zone maps change very slightly, NOT counting decisions to adopt or drop DST, because those are political and geographic decisions. DST on/off dates change every year, and there are numerous different dates.

Interesting article about that here:
https://www.timeanddate.com/news/time/
 
#10 ·
mharris660 said:
What could you possibly be doing where 1 second a day would throw your whole world out of sync?[/COLOR]
Click to expand...
Given that this is the HAQ board, I should think any answer from "I get off on precision" to "I'm a train driver in Tokyo" is going to be just as valid.

There's seldom any high accuracy timing requirement that couldn't be better performed by a dedicated device but I, for one, won't challenge a chap on his reasoning (goodness knows my own justifications for spending thousands upon thousands of pounds on HAQs is thin enough).
 
#11 ·
whiskthecat said:
I don't see a reason why a GPS watch could not have a pre-loaded map that corresponds the current location to whether or not that area uses DST, an On/Off/Auto option would future proof any potential changes to the map.
Click to expand...
There is no reason why a GPS watch cannot have a pre-loaded time zone / DST map - in fact, the Garmin fenix 3 / tactix Bravo GPS watches I've been wearing since March 2015 have just that. The map data are updated at least annually, or when major changes are made. These watches also automatically change time zone based on your location and engage/disengage DST if required - this can be done either with a GPS fix or via a BT link to a smart phone.

This makes the watches very convenient for travel and daily wear. When used just as a watch, the battery life can be as long as six weeks. Use of the myriad other features will shorten battery life the more they are used. They are not solar, but come with a charging cradle which can also be used to sync via a computer USB port to the Garmin mothership.

They are all digital watches with a transflective, MIP (Memory In Pixel) color LCD display that is user selectable to display either positive (white background) or negative (black background). Not for everyone, but might be worth a closer look.

There can never be too many pics, right?

Image


Image


Many watch faces are built-in and user selectable:

Image


HTH
 
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Discussion starter · #14 ·
The Garmin looks somewhat interesting as well. 6 weeks is borderline acceptable battery life for me if it can be justified with additional features.
I was not aware this was possible as the highest I had seen advertised was 2 weeks.
Well on the off chance anyone wants to try calibrating their Casio lineage (LCW-M170D-1A) it did not work out for me. I took the case back off and was greeted with a myriad of test points one of which I'm sure is probably the crystal frequency but there was no small trimming potentiometer/capacitor. I suppose it is possible that it is on the other side of the PCB but I didn't want to tear that far into the thing blindly. More than likely it is not trimmable since this is a radio reception model, let me know if anyone knows otherwise. I also have a G-shock 5610 that I can investigate.
 
#15 ·
Oceanus gps watches handle dst automatically just like the Fenix. An RC watch can be set anywhere in the world with an iphone and the Clock Wave app. But as others have said apple, Breitling, Hoptroff, and Morgenwerk are probably the most accurate synching watches.
 
#16 ·
whiskthecat said:
I also have a G-shock 5610 that I can investigate.[/COLOR]
Click to expand...
You will probably have more luck with the 5610 because of all the (modern) Casios, I have heard about rate adjustment only in connexion with G-Shocks.

What you're looking for, when you pop the back off, is something that looks a bit like a screw. Calibration for the G-Shock is not achieved via a digital terminal but rather via an analogue trimmer capacitor. A small turn one way increases the rate, whilst a small turn the other way decreases it. I have a Witschi timing machine that works for digital watches, so I am able to trim whilst seeing the rate change in real time. If you are unable to do this, then try tiny movements of the trimmer at first and measure their effect on rate over a few days. There are a few threads on the regulation of G-Shocks on other forums.
 
#17 ·
wbird said:
Oceanus gps watches handle dst automatically just like the Fenix. An RC watch can be set anywhere in the world with an iphone and the Clock Wave app. But as others have said apple, Breitling, Hoptroff, and Morgenwerk are probably the most accurate synching watches.
Click to expand...
I've got a Fenix 3. Not a bad watch, a cheap way into GPS sync.

I'd forgotten about Hoptroff.
I was looking at buying a sports watch from him a few years ago, even though they look a bit ugly.
Then he had a stand at Salon QP, but didn't bring any of the sports watches, so I gave up.

Didn't Tom-HK buy one and have issues?

I wonder how easy it is to regulate yourself, rather than pay him £ 200 to get from 15 spy to 1 spy.
 
#18 ·
hughesyn said:
Didn't Tom-HK buy one and have issues?

I wonder how easy it is to regulate yourself, rather than pay him £ 200 to get from 15 spy to 1 spy.
Click to expand...
There is a thread on my Hoptroff experience somewhere. You cannot regulate it yourself, so you'll have to pay that bit extra for the 1 SPY upgrade.

One issue is the sync source. If you're syncing to an iPhone then I don't think you'll have any problems. If you're syncing to an Android phone then you need to check the off-set of your phone as this will vary by carrier. Back when I lived in Hong Kong, my carrier was off by between 0.5 and 2.5 seconds so even with 1 SPY on the watch I could never get the accurate time on the Hot Black and the unpredictable variation in source time screwed up the watch's self-calibration.

The other issue was with the second hand. On the sports models only one second in five is marked and on most models there is a weird pendulum style second hand the arc of which does not match the arc of the second markers. The Stock Market variant comes with a 360° second hand and markers, but also with a complication that I would personally find utterly useless.
 
#19 ·
Tom-HK said:
There is a thread on my Hoptroff experience somewhere. You cannot regulate it yourself, so you'll have to pay that bit extra for the 1 SPY upgrade.

One issue is the sync source. If you're syncing to an iPhone then I don't think you'll have any problems. If you're syncing to an Android phone then you need to check the off-set of your phone as this will vary by carrier. Back when I lived in Hong Kong, my carrier was off by between 0.5 and 2.5 seconds so even with 1 SPY on the watch I could never get the accurate time on the Hot Black and the unpredictable variation in source time screwed up the watch's self-calibration.

The other issue was with the second hand. On the sports models only one second in five is marked and on most models there is a weird pendulum style second hand the arc of which does not match the arc of the second markers. The Stock Market variant comes with a 360° second hand and markers, but also with a complication that I would personally find utterly useless.
Click to expand...
No Hoptroff IOS app when I last checked.
 
Discussion starter · #20 ·
Tom-HK said:
You will probably have more luck with the 5610 because of all the (modern) Casios, I have heard about rate adjustment only in connexion with G-Shocks.

What you're looking for, when you pop the back off, is something that looks a bit like a screw. Calibration for the G-Shock is not achieved via a digital terminal but rather via an analogue trimmer capacitor. A small turn one way increases the rate, whilst a small turn the other way decreases it. I have a Witschi timing machine that works for digital watches, so I am able to trim whilst seeing the rate change in real time. If you are unable to do this, then try tiny movements of the trimmer at first and measure their effect on rate over a few days. There are a few threads on the regulation of G-Shocks on other forums.
Click to expand...
I will give it a try this afternoon. I have an HP frequency counter that goes out to half a millihertz and a rubidium frequency standard to calibrate it with.
 
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whiskthecat
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