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Van Gogh

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I would like your thoughts on the tools that I will be buying for starting to learn watchmaking/repair.

I have other things to pick up (oil/oiler pots ect)
, but I would like your opinion if these are a good start or would you change anything?

I appreciate any suggestions or recommended upgrades, I'm not made of money so I have tried to get decent stuff without breaking the bank.




 
You are paying alot for screwdrivers and crystal press

For starting i would consider cheaper set of screwdrivers , you can find used ones in good condition. Japanese made are good and cheaper mostly .

Crystal fitting is a complicated issue by itself. There are lots of opinions regard the fitting methods and brands .. etc
You can ignore it for now and start with damaged movements, not watches .

You will need x10 loupe i think it is very helpful.

I don't know about the rest of your list , just don't pay alot when you are learning. Alot of things can go wrong
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
I was unsure about the crystal press, but I have read a lot that it's important to get decent screwdriver set and considering I'm going to be using them a lot I don't mind spending a little bit on screwdrivers.

I will look into the 10x loupe, thanks for the feedback.
 
Also check for various tweezers.
Crystal press is available on ebay for twice less.
Hand fitting press goes with one set of dies...
Also take some other type of hand removing tool...

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^^ I think he meant that the hand fitting press already has a set of stakes. I bought that model recently and can confirm it does. Not sure what the problem with hand levers is though, unless he's had bad luck with those particular ones.

As far as the rest of your list goes, good start. I'd be wary of eBay crystal presses for less, that's about the bottom end of the ones that work.

I prefer the 4x loupe and I highly recommend the Bergeon 2611-TN for about twice the price. The Dumostar tweezers are excellent but No. 5 is a bit fine for most handling (recommended for hairspring work). I use No. 2 & 3 mostly. I'd also recommend a pair of brass tweezers for handling plates.

Add pithwood buttons, pegwood, a rubber blower.

I don't want to frighten you with prices, but start looking into cleaners (both machines and solutions) and oiling. Once you get a watch apart, you are going to want to clean it and then once it's clean, you'll want fresh oil.

Oh, and unless you are working on a snap-back case with an easy snap, you'll need a case holder (not Anchor brand) and a case wrench. I've always used Jaxa but there are many out there, including tons of good used ones. Oh and watch out for fakes on eBay, if the price is too good to be true...

This is a really "Give a Mouse a Cookie" hobby.
 
" I think he meant that the hand fitting press already has a set of stakes. I bought that model recently and can confirm it does. Not sure what the problem with hand levers is though, unless he's had bad luck with those particular ones.
"
No bad experience, just sometimes you need to have obe hand free.. Levers force you to use both hands, tweezers can occupy one hand only [emoji4]
Regarding cleaning, agree +1
Simply, you can't compare hand cleaned movement with one cleaned in machine, it is drastic difference... And you notice that at first try. [emoji106]

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From someone who's also going through the process of entering the hobby and getting tools, I'm finding the process a bit of a minefield. As I like getting properly set up before tackling anything, it's been tricky finding quality tools that aren't the best out there but still do the job well.

A few cheaper things have turned out okay (the "French-made" unbranded screwdrivers seem decent). I did pick up the Anchor case holder which I'm yet to use, but now I'm worried based on the prior comment...

I also got the 5x loupe and think I should have gone with either a 3.5x or 4x instead. Working distance seems a little short for my comfort and needs, but could be fine for you.

I'll be able to comment further once I really start using these tools! But yeah, I'd suggest going for the best that can be afforded. It might mean doing it incrementally over time as funds permit.
 
No bad experience, just sometimes you need to have obe hand free.. Levers force you to use both hands, tweezers can occupy one hand only [emoji4]
I use hand levers all the time - they give the absolute best level of control when removing hands, and I use both of my hands when removing hands from a watch. I've never found the need to have one hand free when doing this task...are you eating a sandwich when you are working on a watch or something?
 
I use hand levers all the time - they give the absolute best level of control when removing hands, and I use both of my hands when removing hands from a watch. I've never found the need to have one hand free when doing this task...are you eating a sandwich when you are working on a watch or something?
No, just a matter of comfort level...
I use levers from time to time, but mostly use tweezers type, simoly I got that habbit... [emoji1]

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From someone who's also going through the process of entering the hobby and getting tools, I'm finding the process a bit of a minefield. As I like getting properly set up before tackling anything, it's been tricky finding quality tools that aren't the best out there but still do the job well.

A few cheaper things have turned out okay (the "French-made" unbranded screwdrivers seem decent). I did pick up the Anchor case holder which I'm yet to use, but now I'm worried based on the prior comment...

I also got the 5x loupe and think I should have gone with either a 3.5x or 4x instead. Working distance seems a little short for my comfort and needs, but could be fine for you.

I'll be able to comment further once I really start using these tools! But yeah, I'd suggest going for the best that can be afforded. It might mean doing it incrementally over time as funds permit.
I would look into a set of loupes. I use the type that clamp on to my glasses. They have two 10X lenses. I use them both when checking cleanliness of pivot holes.
https://www.ehobbytools.com/Jewelers-Eye-Loupe-for-Glasses-Two-10x-Lenses_p_1895.html?dfw_tracker=16644-1895


These are great even if you don't require glasses. I would look into a very weak magnification set of reading glasses. The lenses do not fog up which seems to be an issue with the loupes cast in black plastic.

If you decide to get the 4X - 5X loupes make sure there are little holes in the side of the plastic to keep the lens from fogging from the moisture from your eye.

My comments were intended for the OP.

Dennis
 
Regarding hand levers, I don't own a set, so I don't know the disadvantages yet. I bought a Bergeon Presto with a black handle and it has performed adequately for me on the three-handers I've used it on.

However, I had a long chat with a professional watchmaker a few months ago about tackling a chrono, asking what were the pitfalls. He said the biggest warning is removing the chrono hands, the big seconds, and the chrono minute and hour registers. Because these hands have the return cams, they are fitted with more interference than a regular hand and because of that, you have to gain purchase on the underside of the rivet or you will just rip the hand off the rivet. He said the only reliable way to do that is with levers; you can manipulate them until you know they are fitted to the underside of the rivet before pulling.

With that in mind (and trust me, he got my attention; I'm gonna stay away from chronos for a while) I've seen levers that are flat along the working edge and levers with a little indentation, like a miniature wrecking bar. Does anyone have an opinion about the pluses and minuses of each?
 
With that in mind (and trust me, he got my attention; I'm gonna stay away from chronos for a while) I've seen levers that are flat along the working edge and levers with a little indentation, like a miniature wrecking bar. Does anyone have an opinion about the pluses and minuses of each?
I've only used hand levers with a little indentation, so I can't speak to the practical difference between those and flat edge hand levers. However, like all tools eventually the hand levers I bought needed dressing, as the edges were too thick to safely slide under the hands. I used a hand file to hone the edges and that worked great.

Here's the file I have. I use it to dress screwdrivers too.
 
Thanks for the response. I was thinking that the notch was more of a crutch than anything to improve the function. It would have to be very small to actually grab the edges of the rivet without interfering with each other.

Looking again at Esslinger's offerings, they have several of each kind, some have tiny notches and some look more like miniature claw hammers. I suppose each has a purpose.

I do own a pair of Bergeon 30013 collet levers but they have a fork that would swallow a rivet, each on its own. I've heard of people using them interchangeably but I'll stay away and get a pair of flat hand levers; the Horotec 2.5 mm set looks nice or maybe the Bergeon 30019s if I feeling wealthy.
 
I've seen levers that are flat along the working edge and levers with a little indentation, like a miniature wrecking bar. Does anyone have an opinion about the pluses and minuses of each?
Yes, I would stay away from levers that don't have a completely flat side that goes against the dial. Anything that protrudes from the side of the levers that can touch the dial, can potentially do damage. For example these Horotec levers I would not recommend:



They have a very short curved area, and the spot where they increase in diameter at the red arrow can come in contact with the dial as you are removing hands, and possibly damage the dial (particularly an issue when removing hands from sunken sub-dials).

I use VOH levers:



You will see two things that I look for in levers:

1 - Flat on the side that touches the dial.

2 - A good arc in the lever that moves the hands upwards off the posts at a good rate for how much I move the levers, if you get my meaning. I don't want levers that I have to move a large distance in order to lift the hands off, because I don't want the handles to get close to the dial in this process.

3 - A wide surface area that touches the dial - this is important for spreading the loads as you don't want a small area of the dial taking all the pressure when removing hands. Of course different sizes for different hands are sometimes required, so I have a narrow set for removing sub-dial hands, and a wider set for everything else.

The VOH fit this bill exactly, and are by far the best I've used, and I've tried several brands, including the Horotec I showed above.

Of course adequate dial protection is a must, and you can see in the photo I use small pieces if soft plastic, stacked in layers (so you can change the thickness for the hand you are removing) and cut to fit around the posts, plus a plastic bag on top. When removing chronograph hands, that you note are on the posts very well, they come off with a lot of force. You need to contain the hand, because if the hand had lume in it, the whiplash effect from removing the hand can actually cause the lume to break out of the hand.

When removing a central chronograph hand (seconds recording hand) the plastic layers are built up so that the levers are just under the hand you are removing, so you are levering on a bunch of layers of plastic so no damage is done, and the handles of the levers are well way from the dial.

Removing hands from a watch is one of those things that requires complete attention, because if you damage the face of the watch your customer is going to see the result of your inattention every time they look at their watch.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Al
 
Thanks as always for your insight.

For example these Horotec levers I would not recommend:
I was window shopping on Esslinger before I posted and I came to the same conclusion about these particular levers (I believe their 1mm levers). The ones I spied weren't quite as drastic as your example (at least per their pictures) but still did have a ridge as you show and worse yet, the underside has a concave, presenting an additional protrusion where the concave and OD intersect.

So that's a good warning and likely saved me some wasted expense.

I use VOH levers:

2 - A good arc in the lever that moves the hands upwards off the posts at a good rate for how much I move the levers
I also occurred to me that a larger underside radius will result in a tip motion closer to vertical without the curves having to slide on the shim. But I suppose you press inward and the levers easily slide anyway.

I saw your VOH levers on a post on OF and was quite impressed. I see they are about $100 from various sources. On my wish list. Will 3.5mm do for starters? That's what I see on jewelerssupplies.com.

Removing hands from a watch is one of those things that requires complete attention
I suppose that precludes a sandwich? :think:
 
OP, I'd recommend several Dust Cover & Trays. I have five or six and it seems I'm always looking for another. I also label them "Dirty" and "Clean" for parts before and after the cleaner. It's not that I don't clean the dirty ones, but I just want to make sure I don't reuse the wrong one before I get a chance to clean it.

Another product I've come to love came from a place called "The Container Store", a divided plastic tray. This isn't exactly what I bought but it's pretty close:



I prefer those with permanently moulded dividers so things don't go sneaking into the wrong hole. They make great long term storage for that project I'm gonna get back to or for spare parts.
 
I saw your VOH levers on a post on OF and was quite impressed. I see they are about $100 from various sources. On my wish list. Will 3.5mm do for starters? That's what I see on jewelerssupplies.com.
My two sets are 2.5 and about 1.6, so 3.5 is certainly wider than what I use, but it depends on what you are working on.

I suppose that precludes a sandwich? :think:
Indeed - when removing hands from a watch I've never thought "Gee I wish I had one hand free to do something else at the same time"...
 
My two sets are 2.5 and about 1.6, so 3.5 is certainly wider than what I use, but it depends on what you are working on.

Indeed - when removing hands from a watch I've never thought "Gee I wish I had one hand free to do something else at the same time"...
Regarding sandwich and one free hand, just think about: sometimes, rarely but still it happens, you need to hold movement or watch with one hand and remove watch hands with tool... Especially if hands are bent etc... So presto tool is great for that purpose...

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