The Ship of Theseus and Watches

OnlyOneMore · Dec 30, 2020

The ship of Theseus is a very old thought experiment that raises the question of whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object.

I'm interested as in how WIS view parts replacement and when you would consider something is no longer your watch.

For instance, if you took your watch in for service and the watchmaker replaced the movement would you be angry or is it fundamentally still your watch performing it's core purpose with a new movement?

How about the case? Same movement, dial, etc., but shiny new case? That ding you got on your trip... gone... is that still your watch? Same case and movement, but with a new dial? You get the idea.

Now I realize there is probably a sliding scale based on age and sentimentality, but do you have a line of where you think it's too much?

geckobros · Dec 30, 2020

I don't have enough of a sentimental connection to my watches to be a good test subject. My entire watch could be replaced and I would still consider it "my watch" after a day of use.

3AKA3 · Dec 30, 2020

Cool idea for a thread. I'm a sucker for a good paradox discussion. I would suggest adding an element to your experiment from the original paradox. I believe in the original, all replaced parts of the ship were saved and stored ashore. Once every single part of the ship was replaced, there were then two ships... or one? which is Theseus' ship? At what point did one cease to be, and the other become?

Anyway, I will say that it will always be "your watch", however, interesting problems with the concept of "originality" will arise once the first screw or gasket is replaced.

thewatchidiot · Dec 30, 2020

An interesting thought exercise but it applies to everything that has parts. How about your car, washing machine or even your own body parts. If you lose a tooth and have a replacement are you now less than you? And if there was an exact factual answers to when you are no longer you, do you believe everyone will accept that?
On this site, there are heated discussions over a word!

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Nokie · Dec 30, 2020

Waaay to deep for me this early in the morning.......

Watches are a primary enjoyment for me, but when being realistic, they are only a material possession, IMHO.

RonKC · Dec 30, 2020

This thread makes me think of the video linked below of the rebuild of a "destroyed" 1982 Rolex Submariner, which arrived held together with zip ties.

It's clearly the same watch at the end.

BarracksSi · Dec 30, 2020

Asked the same question (some mumble-mumble) years ago and it didn't get as far as I had hoped.

Porky4774 · Dec 30, 2020

I think if it was maybe a limited edition watch then maybe I wouldn’t feel so good about anything being replaced. Kind of cheapens the exclusivity of it if it can be replaced so easily. Other than sentimental reasons aside I would not mind too much. However I did send my leather man back to be repaired and they ended up replacing it. I must admit I was a bit sad as I’d carried that specific one for 3 years and yes I did consider it mine. But I got over it. I am a very sentimental guy anyways.

Kev161 · Dec 30, 2020

Without going too deep about it I would say case and dial gotta be the same, if those are replaced I think of it as a different watch but still my watch though.
If it all gets replaced over an extended period of time instead of all at once then it's the same watch for me.
Maybe it doesn't make any sense but it is the way I see it, don't have to agree with me.

BarracksSi · Dec 30, 2020

OnlyOneMore said:
How about the case? Same movement, dial, etc., but shiny new case? That ding you got on your trip... gone... is that still your watch? Same case and movement, but with a new dial? You get the idea.

I've got my grandpa's old quartz Seiko that I've considered getting repaired. If I ever get around to taking it in, this is the list of what I'd want done:

Dial and hands: Keep. It's also got the "SQ" emblem that they haven't used in years.
Case: Keep, including the Datejust-esque fluted bezel.
Crystal: Replace. It's cracked.
Bracelet: Keep, maybe rehab with new pins if feasible. Works fine.
Movement: Replace if needed. I don't think it works, tried a new battery and it's not running.
- but replacing the movement may not be easy with the same dial, as I've been told that the movement is discontinued and the dial feet may not match a newer movement.
Day-date wheels: Keep if possible (same "patina" as the rest of the watch), replace if needed.
Stem/crown: Replace if needed. The plating on the old one is gone anyway.

Or there's my dad's Omega three-hander from 1968. I had it serviced when he gave it to me so that I could use it safely. I agreed to having the crown replaced (the plating was starting to peel, and it would catch on clothing), but the replacement doesn't match the style of the original. I'd like to have it replaced again with a period-correct crown in good shape.

longtimelurker · Dec 31, 2020

Watches are memorabilia, not memories. All that matters with sentimental objects is the sentiment. So the actual originality isn't important to me. Only that I associate it with the memories.

On a technicality, as long as there's continuity in the components and the watch isn't replaced in its entirety at one time, it's the same watch to me.

Age_of_Surfaces · Dec 31, 2020

I became embroiled in a discussion on this a few months ago.

The Ship of Theseus - or Trigger's Broom in the UK - reared its head when I contemplated the servicing of a 117-year old pocket watch over the summer. I sent it to Switzerland and after nine weeks the manufacturer sent me a diagnosis with a quote: total gut renovation for US$17,000 and an 18-month turnaround time.

The manufacturer intended to restore the watch to a fully functioning state. For me, however, it would have meant handing over a watch manufactured in 1903 and receiving a watch essentially built in 2021 or 2022. That's not what I wanted, because it would have meant erasing the soul of a watch that has somehow managed to survive for more than a century in wonderful cosmetic condition. The experience cast into sharp relief two very different interpretations of heritage. One the one hand, a brand being meticulous about a product that bears its name. On the other hand, an alternative view of preservation of a watch as a living, social artefact.

I was quite miffed at the gap between these two interpretations at the time. I'm a little more at ease about it now, and am comfortable with the next step. That is, the building of a shadow box by a wood smith who makes frames for the display of artwork in museums. It won't cost $17,000, but it will be a fitting home for a watch of personal significance, one that is imperfect but intact.

Tsujigiri · Dec 31, 2020

I'd say that the case, caseback, and possibly dial should stay the same. I think of the movement as a separate thing entirely since it usually has its own serial number and is made separately from the watch. As for what you can switch out, practicality generally determines that. For instance, people usually don't care if vintage watches and pocketwatches have had the crystal replaced because that's considered an item that will get replaced. The same would obviously apply to seals. Crowns often wear down and need to be swapped, and the hands can stretch loose if they're taken off and put on a lot. You'd want to get authentic replacements for the last two, but I would think replacements would be allowed. For the movement, it's expected that you'll replace the mainspring, and sometimes parts of the escapement.

AnonPi · Dec 31, 2020

OnlyOneMore said:
The ship of Theseus is a very old thought experiment that raises the question of whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object.

I'm interested as in how WIS view parts replacement and when you would consider something is no longer your watch.

For instance, if you took your watch in for service and the watchmaker replaced the movement would you be angry or is it fundamentally still your watch performing it's core purpose with a new movement?

How about the case? Same movement, dial, etc., but shiny new case? That ding you got on your trip... gone... is that still your watch? Same case and movement, but with a new dial? You get the idea.

Now I realize there is probably a sliding scale based on age and sentimentality, but do you have a line of where you think it's too much?

Well, for the Ship of Theseus there is a very simple answer: As long as it retains its original keel it is the same ship and, if there are two versions of it, whichever has the original keel is the actual Ship of Theseus.

sleepyhead123 · Dec 31, 2020

In my mind any moveable parts or parts that experience kinetic friction can be considered consumables, so a replacement when it wears out is acceptable. Glass is too, since its purpose is to essentially be a sacrificial shield. But who knows. Basically ask me again when I finally get upset about how much was replaced and you'll know.

Would you consider a car with a rebuilt or new engine and transmission the original?

Mediocre · Dec 31, 2020

If the movement were replaced with a DIFFERENT movement, i would be bothered. Example, replaced in-house with off-the-shelf ETA. Same movement in newer or better condition, no worries for me.

The normally visible pieces, I would want to be asked first.

Raindrops · Dec 31, 2020

This seems to be a question about identity. In general, a person could ask questions such as:
Suppose Tom falls in love with Jane at the age of 19. He loves her because she is sweet, docile and unassuming. They date for 3 years. At the age of 22, Tom starts to have doubts about his love for Jane as in the intervening 3 years, he realises that Jane at the age of 22 is no longer the Jane of 19 he had fallen head over heels for. She has become more controlling of his affairs, more vain, blah blah. Tom asks himself - is he still in love with Jane?

Seabee1 · Dec 31, 2020

Sorry, still laughing about the whole 'wood smith' thing because...shadow box
[QUOTE="Age_of_Surfaces, post: 52823340, member: 1454721That is, the building of a shadow box by a wood smith who makes frames for the display of artwork in museums.[/QUOTE]

rdoder · Dec 31, 2020

I read this in a Seiko watch instruction manual:

"Please keep in mind that if original parts are not available, they may be replaced with substitutes whose outward appearance may differ from the originals."

"When your watch is inspected and adjusted by disassembly and cleaning (overhauled), the movement of your watch may be replaced."

I'm okay with that.

ffritz · Dec 31, 2020

Unless the watch has some unique feature, like e.g. a bronze case with patina grown over years, I think they could basically replace any of my watches with a brand new one, and I wouldn't complain.

The Ship of Theseus and Watches

OnlyOneMore

geckobros

3AKA3

thewatchidiot

Nokie

RonKC

BarracksSi

Porky4774

Kev161

BarracksSi

longtimelurker

Age_of_Surfaces

Tsujigiri

AnonPi

sleepyhead123

Mediocre

Raindrops

Seabee1

rdoder

ffritz

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