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Waltham Wrist watch with Sapphire movement.

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stumblintrucker

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I would like some help. I bought this watch at an auction. It was being sold with a couple Seikos which I was interested in. At quick glance I thought it was a recent tank style watch.
It runs and is in quite good shape. What interests me is it looks like the movement is from the 1920s but I have not seen a lot of cases like this from that time. Either they were pocket watches or the extra space around the movement was empty. Did they put what were predominently pocket watch movements in cases like this in the 20's or do you think this was done after.
I would love to hear thoughts from someone with more knowledge than me.
Thanks!
Rob
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#2 ·
I think you will discover that there were many watches a lot like your Waltham. After WWI, the public started to want wristwatches and the Factories started to churn them out. A large number of small American pocketwatch movements were re-purposed into wristwatch cases, and your Waltham is a good example. Elgin and Hamilton also did this, and there were several other Companies that followed suit.

Some factories sold watches with their names on the case, and there were many, independant case companies that these small movements were used in. Many early round WW cases were actually PW cases that a jeweller had converted ( frequently, by adding two wire lugs ), and it wasn't long afterwards that actual, purpose-made WW cases started to show up.

Quite a few early WW cases seem to have been solid nickel, with gold-filled following a bit later. Sterling sliver was also popular, while solid gold seems then--as now!--to have been uncommon.

Your Waltham Sapphire is a very nice find. Everything about it looks just right, and it should be a really-good timekeeper, too. I've worked on several just like it, and they age very well, mechanically, and run Great!

Michael.
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
Thanks Michael! This is very helpful. So probably a Waltham PW movement repurchased by Waltham into a wristwatch to meet demand.?
Very cool. I was surprised as most watches this shape are smaller but makes sense to be this large to fit the movement.
I love stumbling upon something like this.
Rob
 
#7 ·
stumblintrucker said:
It is 27.5mm diameter excluding crown and 38mm lug to lug.
Yes the crown is fairly large although I always thought PW crowns were more of a diamond shape but that is based on absolutely nothing.
Rob
Click to expand...
I don't recognize this crown, but will note that there were many PW's made over many years, and that they used many, different crowns...MANY!

If we're talking off-the-shelf pieces ( not machined / modified to fit ), then I'l also suggest that finding a USA-made PW crown that will easily fit / look OK on a USA-made WW case is doable, but not so easy.

The crown on your Waltham looks to me to be a replacemnt. It's not finished to the same degree as the case ( dull crown / shiny case ), and looks to my eye a bit too large. The original crown was probably WGF, and may have worn through over the years. The crown that's here looks like a solid metal...no GF or plating. This one looks pretty good though, and if it were mine I give it a nice polish, and make it look a bit more like the rest of the case.

Still: a 95-out-of-100 Waltham WW from the early years...a Really Nice Watch!

Michael.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Thanks Michael. One more question. Caseback says
Illinois Watch Case Co.
Elgin
14k
6/0 W-A

It does not say anything like "guaranteed" or "10 years" or "gold filled".

Would I assume that it is not gf or gp but just a 14k white gold case? The case does not have wear like something that is plated.

I am assuming the only way to tell is go to a jeweller to test or find another with the same markings online that someone has researched already but I haven't found the same hallmark in my research.

I think the 6/0 is the movement size. Not sure what the other letters might mean.

Thanks,
Rob
 
#11 ·
Looks like you might have The Real McCoy here: Solid 14K White Gold! I can't see anything that suggests GF...no wear-through. It's always a good idea to look at edges, where a GF case will almost show itself @ a shiny top layer / a dull base. Gold also has a feel to it that's unlike anything else, although you'll need to...get a feel for it!

With PW cases, solid Gold will tend to give a bit when pushed if not too thick, while GF tends to be really stiff. There were a number of early, USA PW cases that were not at all clearly Marked @ Gold, yet will respond nicely to the 'wiggle test.' I've seen several 8s cases that were solid Gold, although you'd never know it by looking for a Hallmark.

You'll also encounter a fair ( unfair ! ) number of USA PW cases Marked '14K'...they are, but it's actually 14KGF; watch out for these!

Michael.
 
#14 · (Edited)
stumblintrucker said:
Thanks Michael! This is very helpful. So probably a Waltham PW movement repurchased by Waltham into a wristwatch to meet demand.?
Very cool. I was surprised as most watches this shape are smaller but makes sense to be this large to fit the movement.
I love stumbling upon something like this.
Rob
Click to expand...
As wristwatch wearing became popular with men companies used what movements they had in production that would fit practically sized wristwatch cases. Those suitable were ladies-size pocket watch movements. Initially makers also converted ladies-size pocket watches themselves into wristwatches with the addition of wire lugs and suitable crowns. Then came purpose designed and manufactured wristwatches for men. That is what your Waltham is. The period of this watch's manufacture, the late-1920s, was well and truly into the era of mens wristwatch production.

The Sapphire was one of Waltham's "Jewel" series of 6/0 size movements which also included the Diamond, Emerald, Riverside, and Patrician movements. The series was based on the Model 1898 Hunting & 1912 Open Face designs and differed in jeweling, components, and level of finish. Waltham produced the Jewel series for a long time, from 1898 up to around 1942. 6/0 size equates to 11.25 ligne or a tad over 25mm in diameter. For size comparison the modern ETA 2824 is an 11.5 ligne movement.
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
Gumby992 said:
As wristwatch wearing became popular with men companies used what movements they had in production that would fit practically sized wristwatch cases. Those suitable were ladies-size pocket watch movements. Initially makers also converted ladies-size pocket watches themselves into wristwatches with the addition of wire lugs and suitable crowns. Then came purpose designed and manufactured wristwatches for men. That is what your Waltham is. The period of this watch's manufacture, the late-1920s, was well and truly into the era of mens wristwatch production.

The Sapphire was one of Waltham's "Jewel" series of 6/0 size movements which also included the Diamond, Emerald, Riverside, and Patrician movements. The series was based on the Model 1898 Hunting & 1912 Open Face designs and differed in jeweling, components, and level of finish. Waltham produced the Jewel series for a long time, from 1898 up to around 1942. 6/0 size equates to 11.25 ligne or a tad over 25mm in diameter. For size comparison the modern ETA 2824 is an 11.5 ligne movement.
Click to expand...
Thanks Michael this is all so great and informative!
Rob
 
#16 ·
Digging up an old post because of a search for "Waltham Sapphire". I have a 1908 Waltham Sapphire that is extremely unusual and wanted to share a couple pictures for other who may look. It works perfectly and keeps almost perfect time.:



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#17 ·
These Sapphire-Grade Walthams are very nice...among the their better movements. Your's was made around 1909, and seems to have been part of a series of 'jewel-named' designs: Ruby / Emerald / Sapphire / Diamond. These watches were very well made, and have aged well and are easy to work on.

Oh: I suggest removing any fingerprints that show up on any of your watches. A piece of "Rodico" is really handy ( watch out around enamel-filled engravings...some paint can be pulled straight out ! ) and is nice to have on hand. Your Sapphire also has what's known as a Solid Click on the ratchet wheel; later designs used a Recoil Click that gives the mainspring an easier life, and that may be ( ? ) a drop-in fit on this Model. If you ever work on the watch or have it serviced, putting on a later design will let your watch breathe a bit easier.

Michael.
 
#18 ·
Michael Maddan said:
These Sapphire-Grade Walthams are very nice...among the their better movements. Your's was made around 1909, and seems to have been part of a series of 'jewel-named' designs: Ruby / Emerald / Sapphire / Diamond. These watches were very well made, and have aged well and are easy to work on.

Oh: I suggest removing any fingerprints that show up on any of your watches. A piece of "Rodico" is really handy ( watch out around enamel-filled engravings...some paint can be pulled straight out ! ) and is nice to have on hand. Your Sapphire also has what's known as a Solid Click on the ratchet wheel; later designs used a Recoil Click that gives the mainspring an easier life, and that may be ( ? ) a drop-in fit on this Model. If you ever work on the watch or have it serviced, putting on a later design will let your watch breathe a bit easier.

Michael.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Michael. I have been a hobbyist watchmaker for over fifty years and this is one of those rare watches that comes across my bench that I am going to leave as is. It is a very nice original runner—if and when I notice it struggle I'll service it, but it is happy as is. Although I may replace crystal. Amplitude of about 200, Beat Error of about 0.5, +- a few seconds per day. Amazing to get a watch from 1908 that is in this condition.
Regards
 
#20 ·
PlanoTx said:
Thanks, Michael. I have been a hobbyist watchmaker for over fifty years and this is one of those rare watches that comes across my bench that I am going to leave as is. It is a very nice original runner—if and when I notice it struggle I'll service it, but it is happy as is. Although I may replace crystal. Amplitude of about 200, Beat Error of about 0.5, +- a few seconds per day. Amazing to get a watch from 1908 that is in this condition.
Regards
Click to expand...
I'm with you @ 115+ year-old watches running just fine...I've worked on quite a few like yours and had pretty-similar results.

I've also had the pleasure of being around American watches from the 1870's that look about New, and run about the same. As you may have discovered, many early Waltham Model 1857, 18s, enamel dials could very easily be sold as 'New', here in 2023.

Michael.
 
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