Historical trial for 2 frenchs watchs counterfeiters against Rolex, AP, PP, etc.

• Emmanuel Breguet gave a document from 1796 where Louis Breguet said he was going to build something that cost too much and is too hard to counterfeit. Because swiss watch maker were already copying him. Breguet and Glasshute being the first brands to try to protect themselves against copies and counterfeits.
  Deutches were also copying.
• 1800 to year 1850 there is more fake Breguets on the market than real one.
• 4 billions loss each years are estimated for swiss manufacturers.
• Rolex are suing more than a thousand times a year.
• They are talking about "hommages" watches at around 30 minutes into the video.
• Hommage manufacturers must have spys because they often release the fakes BEFORE it's announced at the W&W.
• Patek could sue Pagani Design because some designs are still kind of protected. That is actually a grey area in swiss.
• Only the judge can say if something is a counterfeit. Not even the manufacturers.
• This is a grey area that may be solved soon. So hommage watch could be said as counterfeits by judges soon.
• Seiko mods could even be illegals.
• ProSeiko ( a seiko mods reseller) could be in trouble.

Rolex vs Artisans de Genève :

• AdG has been forbidden to buy watches, mod them and resell them.
• But they can mod watches customers bring and bill them for the modifications.

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• There is not only counterfeited watches but also other products.
• 4 years of counterfeiting and 12 000 watches.
• But this number seems under the reality and experts said this is probably closer to 50 000 units.
• There are : Basic counterfeits ; the "double" where they take a real serial number and duplicate it to a batch of watches ; Best counterfeited watches are really hard to spot ; They used real watches to make fakes with, 1 real watch would be used to make 3 fakes distributing the real parts from the real one to the others. Fakes would be sold 15 000 to 20 000 euros as real watches.
• Rolex sued anyone caught with a fake watch. And they still do.
• In France if you're caught with a counterfeit you'll automaticaly be "guilty" (not the case for everything else in France), and you would have to prove you have been fooled.
• Even if the counterfeited watch is 50 years olds or more, you can still be found guilty.
• "Julien" one of the head of the counterfeiting operation said they used a real serial number for 300/400 watches.
• 80% are Rolex.
• Last 20% are either : Patek, AP, Richard Mille, Omega, Channel, Hublot and Omega. This is an exhaustive list. There is no counterfeited Cartier because they were not the trend when Julien and Florian were active.
• A wachmaker claimed that if someone bring him a fake rolex he will automaticaly keep the watch. But this is something illegal to do in France. ONLY judges and customs can seize the goods.
• Not all brands seize the justice.
• Counterfeiting really started to get exposed in 2019 due to spys & reporters infiltrating the Telegram of counterfeiters.
• "Florian" another head of the counterfeiting said "he would go to swiss and directly buy real rolex parts to Rolex employees". There is for now, no proof of that.
• Florian was in Thailand and Julien in France.
• Julien had AD who were selling his fake watches.
• Julien said to the judge that he do not give a **** because he has" TV in his prison cell and he has more than 4 millions in Bitcoins waiting for him".
• When the judge asked to Rolex how much was the margin per watch, they didn't wanted to answer. All the other manufacturers refused to answer this question.
• Rolex ask for 5 180 000 euros to Julien. And 2 000 000 to Florian. Plus 4 000 000 for total prejudice.
• Customs ask 354 000 000 to Julien ( yes there isn't any typo here).
• In France you're sentenced to the real value for each fake watch. For exemple you go to vacances and come back with a fake watch to your wrist, if Custom get you, you'll have to pay the real value of the watch to them + another sentence.
• So in total Julien owe around 371 000 000 millions and 7 000 000 millions for Florian.
• Julien was also making fake papers (passports, etc).

• Florian has been found guilty and condemned to 4 years "ferme" in prison. That mean he won't get out before 4 years.
• Florian cannot be the director of any company for 10 years.
• Florian will have to pay 300 000 euros ( 7 000 000 asked).

• Julien has been found guilty and condemned to 4 years and 6 months.
• Julien cannot be the director of any company for 10 years.
• His villa in Thailand will be seized.
• Julien will be forced to publy in the digital and paper press what he done.
• Julien will have to pay a total of 208 000 000 millions.
• 206 millions to customs.
• 1,87 millions to Rolex.
• 50 000 euros to Chanel, Audemars Piguet, Patek Philippe, Richard Mille and Omega.
• 44 000 euros to Hublot.
• 800 euros to Fred.

ExpiredWatchdog said:

Huh?

Does not compute.

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ExpiredWatchdog said:

^^^ Oh, I get it....

WATCHES!!

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When the judge asked to Rolex how much was the margin per watch, they didn't wanted to answer. All the other manufacturers refused to answer this question.

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SigDigit said:

4 years. And the criminal is laughing, watching TV in his cell waiting to collect his millions in Bitcoin or wherever else his ill-gotten gains are hidden. The system has become a complete joke, regardless of country.

This is my favorite part: If customers ever learned the truth about the profit margins, I'm guessing they would feel so duped that nobody would ever buy a Rolex, et al, again.

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Rekla said:

An historical trial just happened in France against 2 counterfeiters.
Swiss brands like Rolex, AP, PP, etc are involved.
This trial could also be the start of something bigger against hommages watches.

This was a 2 weeks trial.

I traducted for you all the informations from this hour long video since i guess a lot of people do not speak french on WUS.

Some history and news regarding the counterfeiting of watches :



The trial :

• There is not only counterfeited watches but also other products.
• 4 years of counterfeiting and 12 000 watches.
• But this number seems under the reality and experts said this is probably closer to 50 000 units.
• There are : Basic counterfeits ; the "double" where they take a real serial number and duplicate it to a batch of watches ; Best counterfeited watches are really hard to spot ; They used real watches to make fakes with, 1 real watch would be used to make 3 fakes distributing the real parts from the real one to the others. Fakes would be sold 15 000 to 20 000 euros as real watches.
• Rolex sued anyone caught with a fake watch. And they still do.
• In France if you're caught with a counterfeit you'll automaticaly be "guilty" (not the case for everything else in France), and you would have to prove you have been fooled.
• Even if the counterfeited watch is 50 years olds or more, you can still be found guilty.
• "Julien" one of the head of the counterfeiting operation said they used a real serial number for 300/400 watches.
• 80% are Rolex.
• Last 20% are either : Patek, AP, Richard Mille, Omega, Channel, Hublot and Omega. This is an exhaustive list. There is no counterfeited Cartier because they were not the trend when Julien and Florian were active.
• A wachmaker claimed that if someone bring him a fake rolex he will automaticaly keep the watch. But this is something illegal to do in France. ONLY judges and customs can seize the goods.
• Not all brands seize the justice.
• Counterfeiting really started to get exposed in 2019 due to spys & reporters infiltrating the Telegram of counterfeiters.
• "Florian" another head of the counterfeiting said "he would go to swiss and directly buy real rolex parts to Rolex employees". There is for now, no proof of that.
• Florian was in Thailand and Julien in France.
• Julien had AD who were selling his fake watches.
• Julien said to the judge that he do not give a **** because he has" TV in his prison cell and he has more than 4 millions in Bitcoins waiting for him".
• When the judge asked to Rolex how much was the margin per watch, they didn't wanted to answer. All the other manufacturers refused to answer this question.
• Rolex ask for 5 180 000 euros to Julien. And 2 000 000 to Florian. Plus 4 000 000 for total prejudice.
• Customs ask 354 000 000 to Julien ( yes there isn't any typo here).
• In France you're sentenced to the real value for each fake watch. For exemple you go to vacances and come back with a fake watch to your wrist, if Custom get you, you'll have to pay the real value of the watch to them + another sentence.
• So in total Julien owe around 371 000 000 millions and 7 000 000 millions for Florian.
• Julien was also making fake papers (passports, etc).

The judgement :

• Florian has been found guilty and condemned to 4 years "ferme" in prison. That mean he won't get out before 4 years.
• Florian cannot be the director of any company for 10 years.
• Florian will have to pay 300 000 euros ( 7 000 000 asked).

• Julien has been found guilty and condemned to 4 years and 6 months.
• Julien cannot be the director of any company for 10 years.
• His villa in Thailand will be seized.
• Julien will be forced to publy in the digital and paper press what he done.
• Julien will have to pay a total of 208 000 000 millions.
• 206 millions to customs.
• 1,87 millions to Rolex.
• 50 000 euros to Chanel, Audemars Piguet, Patek Philippe, Richard Mille and Omega.
• 44 000 euros to Hublot.
• 800 euros to Fred.

I did my best to report that to you, i hope there wasn't too much typos.

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leadbelly2550 said:

What does counterfeit merch have to do with homages that don’t use other brands’ names, trademarked markings, serial numbers etc.? Apples and oranges.

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DaleGribble said:

And how much of the judgement is going to the real victims, the people that bought his fraudulent watches? I'm guessing none because that's what always happens. The corporations, the government, and the lawyers get all the money and the little guy is left holding the bag.

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