Are the recent AV0030-60A and AV0030-51A Calibre 2100 SS watches with Mineral Crystal FAKE?

Delmarco · Apr 19, 2013

Lately the internet has been flooded with lots of new stock Stainless Steel AV0030-60A watches (also sometimes listed as AV0030-51A) that has a Mineral Crystal and Promaster Engraved Caseback.

These watches seem to all be selling from Singapore, Hong Kong and New Zealand via eBay and popular web stores.

Are all these fakes or did Citizen Watch Co. made a recent batch of Calibre 2100 for the Asian market that ALL now have the Mineral Crystal and the Engraved Promaster Caseback?

Traditionally the AV0030-60A/AV0030-51A versions that had the Promaster Engraved Caseback came with Sapphire Crystal while the AV0031-59A has Mineral Crystal and the shiny caseback.

I've always wanted to trade up my Mineral Crystal/S.Steel/Shiny Caseback AV0031-59A watch for the AV0030 series to get the Sapphire and Promaster caseback but now it seems all the AV0030 are Mineral Crystal.

Delmarco · Apr 19, 2013

bump. anyone?

Delmarco · Apr 25, 2013

BUMP! Anyone?

Kilovolt · Apr 25, 2013

The AV0030-60A that are sold in Italy and Germany have the sapphire glass and the Promaster caseback, you may wish to get one on Ebay from a seller located in one of these countries remembering that you have to ask the seller to deduct the VAT from the price.

roadie · Apr 25, 2013

This would be interesting to know. I own 2 cal. 2100's (SS and Ti) original version with mineral crystal and shiny caseback. I've never wanted to upgrade, but I'm sure others here would like to know.

Delmarco · May 1, 2013

roadie said:
This would be interesting to know. I own 2 cal. 2100's (SS and Ti) original version with mineral crystal and shiny caseback. I've never wanted to upgrade, but I'm sure others here would like to know.

All the SS Calibre 2100s sold in NA usually had the mineral crystal. In Europe some SS came with sapphire especially the titanium 55H which had sapphire. In Asia ALLthese early editions Calibre 2100 was titled under the AV0030-xxx and came with sapphire crystal and the engraved caseback. This is a FACT so it is a concern to me to see hundreds of AV0030-xxx watches now being sold directly from Asia with mineral crystal and the engraved caseback.

It is like BMW shipping cars to the USA from Germany with Ford engines under the hood.

It is not making sense to me!

Delmarco · May 22, 2013

Just took delivery of my first AV0030-51A and it indeed has Sapphire Crystal and NOT Mineral Crystal.

I purchased it DIRECTLY from an Official Citizen Japan Based Dealer who confirmed that this is a Sapphire Crystal Promaster and not the Mineral Crystal. He was also confused when I mentioned they are lots of AV0030-51A and 60A on eBay being sold with Mineral Crystal.

He said Citizen does not make AV0030 models with Mineral Crystal and if they did they would be simply tagged and boxed as AV0031s not AV0030s.

So I am not entirely sure what those 51A and 60A that those eBay sellers out of Singapore and New Zealand are selling.

The quality of the steel of my new AV0030-51A is more polished and refined that my USA AV0031-59A. After owning three AV0031-59A during the last 2 years I must say that this AV0030-51A is definitely a better built watch. Not sure how that is yet but it definitely feels more robust than my AV0031s.

I could be just a psychological bias but see the pictures below to get a gist at what I mean:

There wasn't much in the box. Just a sleek black e210 instructions book, an international warranty booklet and the watch.

Lemaniac40 · May 22, 2013

Delmarco said:
Just took delivery of my first AV0030-51A and it indeed has Sapphire Crystal and NOT Mineral Crystal.

I purchased it DIRECTLY from an Official Citizen Japan Based Dealer who confirmed that this is a Sapphire Crystal Promaster and not the Mineral Crystal. He was also confused when I mention they are lots of AV0030-51A and 60A on eBay with Mineral Crystal. He said Citizen does not make those models with Mineral Crystal and if they did they would be boxed and modeled as AV0031s not AV0030s.

So I am not sure what those 51A and 60A are that those eBay sellers out of Singapore and New Zealand are selling.

The quality of the steel of my new AV0030-51A is more polished and refined that my USA AV0031-59A. After owning three AV0031-59A during the last 2 years I must say that this AV0030-51A is definitely a better built watch. Not sure how yet but it feels more robust and not as fragile as my AV0031s. I could be just a mental thing but see the pictures below:

There wasn't much in the box.

Very nice watch sir! Love it!

Kilovolt · May 23, 2013

On the caseback of my AV0020-55H just around the Promaster engraving it says: DON'T OPEN! SERVICE CENTER REPAIR ONLY SAPPHIRE while I don't see the word sapphire on your caseback

I know that Citizen puts the word sapphire on the dial or caseback of a watch when the same is fitted, are you sure yours is not a mineral crystal?

Delmarco · May 23, 2013

Kilovolt said:
On the caseback of my AV0020-55H just around the Promaster engraving it says: DON'T OPEN! SERVICE CENTER REPAIR ONLY SAPPHIRE while I don't see the word sapphire on your caseback

I know that Citizen puts the word sapphire on the dial or caseback of a watch when the same is fitted, are you sure yours is not a mineral crystal?

I'm certain the crystal on this AV0030 is different than the mineral crystal on the three AV0031-59A watches I've owned during the last two years (the sound is different when I tap it with a coin and the reflectiveness is different).

The dealer who sold it to me said it was Sapphire and not Mineral...but I do see your point of where it 'should' say sapphire on the caseback. I'm now curious.

I wonder if there is a place I can take it to for confirmation that the AV0030 on my wrist is indeed Sapphire Glass?

Kilovolt · May 23, 2013

It comes to my mind a discussion on this same subject a few years ago on another forum. At that time the watches sold in Italy and Germany had a sapphire glass while the ones sold in the UK a mineral glass. If I well remember the conclusion was that the sapphire glass is slightly thinner and it is somewhat recessed in respect of the bezel (like in my watch) while the mineral one is slightly protruding because of its higher thickness.
I think you can compare your watches and check whether this is still true.

Now I recall that this story came out because some Englishmen complained about a chipped glass edge while some Italians (including myself) and Germans said it was impossible because the glass was recessed and its edge protected by the bezel. After much exchange of posts the above difference in thicknesses was confirmed.

Delmarco · May 23, 2013

Kilovolt said:
On the caseback of my AV0020-55H just around the Promaster engraving it says: DON'T OPEN! SERVICE CENTER REPAIR ONLY SAPPHIRE while I don't see the word sapphire on your caseback

I know that Citizen puts the word sapphire on the dial or caseback of a watch when the same is fitted, are you sure yours is not a mineral crystal?

https://www.watchuseek.com/f21/citi...drive-av0030-60a-vs-citizen-mens-av0031-59a-eco-drive-calibre-210-a-626312.html

Just found an answer in an old thread that I wrote in years back. I also saw some web page adverts back in 2010/2011 for these watches that say they are Sapphire Glass watches.

Even some of the European Citizen websites show the AV0030 has Sapphire.

So my dealer was right my watch should, in principle, have Sapphire Crystal and not Mineral.

Now the question that remains is why is there both an AV0030-60A and an AV0030-51A if both watches are, in theory, identical?

Kilovolt · May 23, 2013

There's no doubt that Citizen makes s/s 2100's with a sapphire glass but still the word 'sapphire' should be written somewhere on the watch as per Citizen's standard practice. Have you checked whether the crystal is flush with the bezel or protruding?

Delmarco · May 23, 2013

Kilovolt said:
It comes to my mind a discussion on this same subject a few years ago on another forum. At that time the watches sold in Italy and Germany had a sapphire glass while the ones sold in the UK a mineral glass. If I well remember the conclusion was that the sapphire glass is slightly thinner and it is somewhat recessed in respect of the bezel (like in my watch) while the mineral one is slightly protruding because of its higher thickness.
I think you can compare your watches and check whether this is still true.

Now I recall that this story came out because some Englishmen complained about a chipped glass edge while some Italians (including myself) and Germans said it was impossible because the glass was recessed and its edge protected by the bezel. After much exchange of posts the above difference in thicknesses was confirmed.

OH NOES!!!! My AV0030's glass protrudes very high above the bezel ring. Almost comically high above the bezel.

That can't be a good for the argument that this glass is possibly sapphire right?

But this short video of the AV0030-60A shows the sapphire glass sits high above the bezel as well.

Pawl_Buster · May 23, 2013

Kilovolt said:
There's no doubt that Citizen makes s/s 2100's with a sapphire glass but still the word 'sapphire' should be written somewhere on the watch as per Citizen's standard practice. Have you checked whether the crystal is flush with the bezel or protruding?

If you go back and search the old SCWF forum from about 4 or 5 years ago; you will find a wealth of info about this model(s) and the 4 variations that it came in. There was a mix and match of ss/titanium; mineral/sapphire and etched vs carved/stamped case backs.

To my knowledge; there has never been a forgery of this watch shown or proven.

Delmarco · May 23, 2013

Found this really cool web thread on Sapphire testing. Member bought the AV0020-55A and was in the same boat as me whether it had sapphire or not. Like me his AV0020-55A had the engraved caseback but no Sapphire stamping on the caseback. However the dealer tags claimed it was Sapphire. So he was confused.

SCWF Mirror : StratManII... Can you help? TIA (Bruce-YVR, 2006-08-04, message 1154757100)

They did a bead of water test dropped on the glass. If the droplet beads it is Sapphire. If it spreads out it is Mineral.

Here are the pictures of his test which concluded the AV0020-55A is 100% Sapphire and not Mineral even though the caseback does not have Sapphire stamped on it.

Pawl_Buster · May 23, 2013

The water drop test is really only accurate if the crystal is surgically clean and the water is distilled. Any sort of film; like poorly removed finger print oils or contaminants in the water will render this test inconclusive.

The surface tension between the crystal and the water is what shows the difference but anything that disturbs the balance will give varying results.

Delmarco · May 23, 2013

Pawl_Buster said:
The water drop test is really only accurate if the crystal is surgically clean and the water is distilled. Any sort of film; like poorly removed finger print oils or contaminants in the water will render this test inconclusive.

The surface tension between the crystal and the water is what shows the difference but anything that disturbs the balance will give varying results.

Yup, just tried the water test on my watch and it definitely did not bead and just spread out.

However, I was using NYC tap water with a Q-tip and only managed to wipe-clean the glass before the test which may have been oily still. So there is much room for error.

I'm about to go down to the diamond district in midtown on my lunch break and find a proper jeweler to confirm what is on my wrists right now.

I swear If I got ripped off there will be HELL to pay!

Kilovolt · May 23, 2013

Delmarco said:
my AV0030's glass protrudes well above the bezel ring. oh no. not good right?

But this short video of the AV0030-60A shows the sapphire glass sits high above the bezel as well.

This is a pic of AV0020-55H definitely with sapphire (written on the caseback):

As to the video the glass is definitely protruding but there's no proof it's a sapphire version

PJ S · May 24, 2013

As above, the video is worthless since the uploader may've (probably) has used the wrong model code, assumed wrongly, or wherever he bought it from, advertised it with the incorrect code.
Either way, it's pretty much a given that mineral sits proud of the bezel - the extra thickness being required in order to meet shatter resistance specs perhaps - and sapphire is level with the bezel.
Because of the confusion over model numbers, it's not difficult to appreciate why even sellers get it wrong.
If you want conclusive answers, then only Citizen USA (more likely Japan) will be able to provide them - drop them an email or phone their service dept.

Are the recent AV0030-60A and AV0030-51A Calibre 2100 SS watches with Mineral Crystal FAKE?

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