...to start wearing my 1045 powered Speedmasters more often. Today it's this chunky, funky TV dial. 176.0014, Bar Bracelet, Sunburst Dial.
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Pascal has inspired me...
JohnKennedy
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...to start wearing my 1045 powered Speedmasters more often. Today it's this chunky, funky TV dial. 176.0014, Bar Bracelet, Sunburst Dial.
![Image]()
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Nice :-!
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I hear that Chuck is on his way to your house with a gun. :-d
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No, silly...he uses knives for the love of their craftmanship. :-d
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I need to consult with you and Chuck a little bit. I have basically abandoned all hope of finding a 3760822 so I guess I need to start looking for alternatives. A Fortis perhaps....
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I don't think you should abandon hope of finding a 376.0822, even if those are extremely elusive. When I started admiring this watch, I never thought I could find one, let alone afford it. But then after a couple of years I got lucky, and here I am owning an example of the most wonderful automatic chrono Omega has ever produced.
Prices are still high following the OmegaMania craze, but the latest trend seems to indicate that at least some stability has returned, so getting a Grail is certainly not an unachievable goal!
Now, there are many "poor man's Grails" out there, and most are very attractive in their own right, but if you buy one of them merely as a substitute for the real thing, it will never be fully satisfying.
Anyway, I'll be happy to help if you need suggestions about more affordable alternatives to the Grail.
Prices are still high following the OmegaMania craze, but the latest trend seems to indicate that at least some stability has returned, so getting a Grail is certainly not an unachievable goal!
Now, there are many "poor man's Grails" out there, and most are very attractive in their own right, but if you buy one of them merely as a substitute for the real thing, it will never be fully satisfying.
Anyway, I'll be happy to help if you need suggestions about more affordable alternatives to the Grail.
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Hi Pascal. Would you mind giving us an idea of what the current prices are. I haven´t been following the auctions lately.
I´m interested in learning about the alternatives. Please post your suggestions.
Thanks.
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Please feel free to make some suggestions. Perhaps a "Poor Man's Grail" thread would be a good idea?
Thanks,
JohnKennedy
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Why? I already own the best of both worlds...
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I already own the best of both worlds... And I am very happy to let others enjoy theirs...
-- Chuck
Why?
I already own the best of both worlds... And I am very happy to let others enjoy theirs...
-- Chuck
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Here are a number of reasonably close alternatives...
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The Cosmonaut [which really looks and wears more like a Speedmaster Mark V than the grail] ...
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... has the advantage as being tested by the Russian Space Agency [which instructs it's Cosmonauts that the watch can be used as an erstatz Hammer! [!]] And the 5100 Cosmo's are still reasonably available. They wear nicely [a little smaller than the moonwatch and actually feel very similar to the Speedmaster Mark V ironically enough], their disadvantage [in some people's eyes' are the screw-down pushers and a crown design which doesn't inspire confidence [even though I've never had a problem with any of my Cosmo's].
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The Stratoliner has the advantage of not having the screw down pushers [and a sturdier crown in my opinion] looks that are fairly similar to the Grail 376.0822, it can be found with some searching and typically can be found for under $1500 without much difficulty. It also was sold under the CYMA brand [Eric / Eptaz's example is a CYMA and Jean Marcel brands as well. Here is a picture of Eric's CYMA:
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The other alternative, which I also believe to be VERY attractive, but a step further away from the Grail's appearance is the Heuer Carrera 5100:
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It has the advantage of being more readable than any of the other alternative [mentioned above] and I believe it to be as readable as the Grail perhaps even more readable. Both it and the Grail also look smashing on a nice leather strap.
So there are three main alternatives [Four if you count the CYMA separately, Five if you count the Mark V], which should be easier and cheaper to find than a Grail.
Of the above options, the CYMA/Fortis Stratoliner would probably be the least expensive to source. Here's one which went for just over $1,100 last Saturday on eBay:
cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Cyma-Blk-Chronograph-Stainless-Automatic-Watch_W0QQitemZ180206094060QQihZ008QQcategoryZ31387QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[NOTE: A $20 Ron Sabo Stamped End Link Oyster style bracelet looks incredible on the Stratoliner [as shown in my picture above]. So don't let the lack of a bracelet throw you.]
I hope this helps!
-- Chuck
In my opinion the best alternative to a Speedmaster Grail at this point in time is one of the Fortis Cosmonaut 5100's or a Fortis Stratoliner 5100 model of some stripe...
The Cosmonaut [which really looks and wears more like a Speedmaster Mark V than the grail] ...
... has the advantage as being tested by the Russian Space Agency [which instructs it's Cosmonauts that the watch can be used as an erstatz Hammer! [!]] And the 5100 Cosmo's are still reasonably available. They wear nicely [a little smaller than the moonwatch and actually feel very similar to the Speedmaster Mark V ironically enough], their disadvantage [in some people's eyes' are the screw-down pushers and a crown design which doesn't inspire confidence [even though I've never had a problem with any of my Cosmo's].
The Stratoliner has the advantage of not having the screw down pushers [and a sturdier crown in my opinion] looks that are fairly similar to the Grail 376.0822, it can be found with some searching and typically can be found for under $1500 without much difficulty. It also was sold under the CYMA brand [Eric / Eptaz's example is a CYMA and Jean Marcel brands as well. Here is a picture of Eric's CYMA:
The other alternative, which I also believe to be VERY attractive, but a step further away from the Grail's appearance is the Heuer Carrera 5100:
It has the advantage of being more readable than any of the other alternative [mentioned above] and I believe it to be as readable as the Grail perhaps even more readable. Both it and the Grail also look smashing on a nice leather strap.
So there are three main alternatives [Four if you count the CYMA separately, Five if you count the Mark V], which should be easier and cheaper to find than a Grail.
Of the above options, the CYMA/Fortis Stratoliner would probably be the least expensive to source. Here's one which went for just over $1,100 last Saturday on eBay:
cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Cyma-Blk-Chronograph-Stainless-Automatic-Watch_W0QQitemZ180206094060QQihZ008QQcategoryZ31387QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[NOTE: A $20 Ron Sabo Stamped End Link Oyster style bracelet looks incredible on the Stratoliner [as shown in my picture above]. So don't let the lack of a bracelet throw you.]
I hope this helps!
-- Chuck
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First of all, thanks to Chuck for covering the question of possible "poor man's Grails".
I don't have much to add, other than the fact that I view the Fortis Stratoliner/Cyma chronograph/Jean Marcel Ikarus family as the strongest contender for the title by far. I am also tempted to include in the list the Sinn 156, even if the market prices for this watch have increased quite a bit over the last few years. Another option might also be the early Lemania 5100 Hamilton chronos which still sell for reasonable prices so far. Several dial/subdials combinations, and I have seen some very attractive black on black ones in the past. Here is my example below with silver subdials...
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I don't have much to add, other than the fact that I view the Fortis Stratoliner/Cyma chronograph/Jean Marcel Ikarus family as the strongest contender for the title by far. I am also tempted to include in the list the Sinn 156, even if the market prices for this watch have increased quite a bit over the last few years. Another option might also be the early Lemania 5100 Hamilton chronos which still sell for reasonable prices so far. Several dial/subdials combinations, and I have seen some very attractive black on black ones in the past. Here is my example below with silver subdials...
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Additional "Poor Man's" Grail thoughts...
Pascal S Posts: Re: Pascal has inspired me...
First of all, thanks to Chuck for covering the question of possible "poor man's Grails".
I don't have much to add, other than the fact that I view the Fortis Stratoliner/Cyma chronograph/Jean Marcel Ikarus family as the strongest contender for the title by far.
I am also tempted to include in the list the Sinn 156,
![Image]()
even if the market prices for this watch have increased quite a bit over the last few years.
Another option might also be the early Lemania 5100 Hamilton chronos which still sell for reasonable prices so far.
Several dial/subdials combinations, and I have seen some very attractive black on black ones in the past. Here is my example below with silver subdials...
![Image]()
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Pascal S Posts: Re: Pascal has inspired me...
First of all, thanks to Chuck for covering the question of possible "poor man's Grails".
Hmmm... Apparently not especially conclusively though as Pascal has raised some very good points [this is common when talking 5100's with Pascal though, so it's not a big surprise].
I don't have much to add, other than the fact that I view the Fortis Stratoliner/Cyma chronograph/Jean Marcel Ikarus family as the strongest contender for the title by far.
Yes, of the alternative's either one of us have pointed out the F/C/JM trio would probably be the closest in style and feel to the Grail, and even then and only visually, it's not a very close match. In person the Grail is a league apart even though some of the others [in particular the Heuer Carrera] are exceedingly fine examples of the 5100.
I am also tempted to include in the list the Sinn 156,
I would have missed that one completely! This is why it's so very good to have Pascal around. The Sinn 156 certainly has a good look about it. I've never been a keen fan of the "Bundeswehr" styled bezel, but other that that, it has a nicely shaped case.
even if the market prices for this watch have increased quite a bit over the last few years.
Another option might also be the early Lemania 5100 Hamilton chronos which still sell for reasonable prices so far.
When one can find them...
Several dial/subdials combinations, and I have seen some very attractive black on black ones in the past. Here is my example below with silver subdials...
And I have managed to land a pair of particularly attractive white dial variants:
Of course these are notably further afield than others we've discussed. And none of them are very easy to find... I should also mention that the Fortis Stratoliner came in a White Dial model:
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Which I have sought a good clean example of for several years. This model also was issued with a variety of "cartoon" dials over the years as well...
![Image]()
As has the Fortis Cosmonaut been offered in various Cartoon Dialed variants.
Again, the Fortis Stratoliner Black dial, is probably the closest in appearance and mindset to the grail... Here is another completed auction, this time from eBay out of Germany:
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150182644140
Which should give one an idea as to what these are going for.
And I'll also provide a counter point for the fellow [I believe it was Pascal] saying [Oh! It was Pascal! Here's the quote]:
My counterpoint is: Then don't buy them as a mere substitute... Buy them as a holdover until you find a Grail that's right for you to bring home. Then you can sell off the "Poor Man's" model if the need arises to fund the Grail, or other watches. Chances are you'll profit from having owned the "Poor Man's" model both personally and financially.
Cheers and Good Hunting!
-- Chuck
Which I have sought a good clean example of for several years. This model also was issued with a variety of "cartoon" dials over the years as well...
As has the Fortis Cosmonaut been offered in various Cartoon Dialed variants.
Again, the Fortis Stratoliner Black dial, is probably the closest in appearance and mindset to the grail... Here is another completed auction, this time from eBay out of Germany:
cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150182644140
Which should give one an idea as to what these are going for.
And I'll also provide a counter point for the fellow [I believe it was Pascal] saying [Oh! It was Pascal! Here's the quote]:
"Now, there are many "poor man's Grails" out there, and most are very attractive in their own right, but if you buy one of them merely as a substitute for the real thing, it will never be fully satisfying."
My counterpoint is: Then don't buy them as a mere substitute... Buy them as a holdover until you find a Grail that's right for you to bring home. Then you can sell off the "Poor Man's" model if the need arises to fund the Grail, or other watches. Chances are you'll profit from having owned the "Poor Man's" model both personally and financially.
Cheers and Good Hunting!
-- Chuck
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Re: Additional "Poor Man's" Grail thoughts...
Ahh...Chuck and Pascal getting together to talk 5100s always gets my blood flowing. Thanks, fellas.
I'm fortunate to have examples of a couple of the "Poor Man's Grails" listed above; the Cyma Chuck posted, and this 510.523 Carrera.
![Image]()
Speaking from my own experience, I can only emphasize the comments Chuck and Pascal made here:
eric
Ahh...Chuck and Pascal getting together to talk 5100s always gets my blood flowing. Thanks, fellas.
I'm fortunate to have examples of a couple of the "Poor Man's Grails" listed above; the Cyma Chuck posted, and this 510.523 Carrera.
Speaking from my own experience, I can only emphasize the comments Chuck and Pascal made here:
While I thoroughly enjoy both of my PMGs and can appreciate them for what they are, they haven't done enough to diminish my urge to find my "true Grail." Omegamania presented a pretty significant speed bump, but the search is always on.
eric
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Eric, that Carrera of yours is stunningly beautiful. 
It would probably have been on top of my "wanted" list if I had not developed a quasi-obsession about finding the Heuer Audi Sport. And now that my wish has been fulfilled, I am definitely going to concentrate on getting myself my own example of the ref. 510.523 chrono.
Of course, chances are that a few other watches might attract my attention in the meantime. Anybody said "Speedmaster Mark V"? ;-)
Oh, and Chuck is right. It is actually a good idea to acquire a "poor man's Grail" as a holdover until you find the real thing, as long as you don't expect it to be a full substitute because I can already tell you that it won't be (I know because I tried). Frankly, the real Grail is in a class of its own...
It would probably have been on top of my "wanted" list if I had not developed a quasi-obsession about finding the Heuer Audi Sport. And now that my wish has been fulfilled, I am definitely going to concentrate on getting myself my own example of the ref. 510.523 chrono.
Of course, chances are that a few other watches might attract my attention in the meantime. Anybody said "Speedmaster Mark V"? ;-)
Oh, and Chuck is right. It is actually a good idea to acquire a "poor man's Grail" as a holdover until you find the real thing, as long as you don't expect it to be a full substitute because I can already tell you that it won't be (I know because I tried). Frankly, the real Grail is in a class of its own...
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I'll pull on my soothsayer's cap and say...
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Especially considering how Eric likes the Cushion Case. [What a safe wager!]
-- Chuck
Eric's having said that... I'll pull on my soothsayer's cap and say that as nice as the true grail truly is, and while Eric's motivation to seek the true grail is likely strong. I'll predict that when he does finally bring a "true Grail" home, I doubt the Heuer Carrera 510.523 will be kicked to the curb in the aftermath. The CYMA, maybe, the Carrera, I'd bet a dozen Krispy Kreme's it ain't gonna happen.Ahh...Chuck and Pascal getting together to talk 5100s always gets my blood flowing. Thanks, fellas.
I'm fortunate to have examples of a couple of the "Poor Man's Grails" listed above; the Cyma Chuck posted, and this 510.523 Carrera.
![Image]()
Speaking from my own experience, I can only emphasize the comments Chuck and Pascal made here:
While I thoroughly enjoy both of my PMGs and can appreciate them for what they are, they haven't done enough to diminish my urge to find my "true Grail." Omegamania presented a pretty significant speed bump, but the search is always on.
eric
Especially considering how Eric likes the Cushion Case. [What a safe wager!]
-- Chuck
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