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Hi Guys,

I need your expert views on the following watches:

From my grand grand pa I have got 1900 Grand Prix Paris, 14K Longines, with 1259841 id number and HY Morcer and Ce, 14k, 34828 ID number, quality vermez, echappement a ancre xierres.

Phohots attached (sory for bad quality). Can someone give some info on these watches, rough idea on value, etc.

Watches are not working, not sure if any problem, but most likely not used for more than 80 years now.
I do not know the age of Morcer, as cold not find production year on it.
 

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Zenith Forum Co-moderator
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Welcome to the forum. I am afraid we don't do valuations here - there is a sticky as to why. The best way to get a reasonably precise age for the Moser would probably to use the case hallmarks. It must almost certainly be pre-1917 since it was made for the russian market and that broke down after the revolution. Since it is pin set, it is probably from the late 19th century, possibly the first decade of the 20th century.

Hartmut Richter
 

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Welcome to the forum. I am afraid we don't do valuations here - there is a sticky as to why. The best way to get a reasonably precise age for the Moser would probably to use the case hallmarks. It must almost certainly be pre-1917 since it was made for the russian market and that broke down after the revolution. Since it is pin set, it is probably from the late 19th century, possibly the first decade of the 20th century.

Hartmut Richter
Actually, I think this particular model was NOT intended for the Russian market. All Moser watches for the Russian market had inscriptions in Russian inside. Longines is a pocket watch conversion, probably executed between 1915 and 1922. The movement looks like early 1900s. Moser is likely dated around 1900. Hope this helps.
 

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Vint. Forum Co-Moderator
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Size of the Longines would help in judging if this was a pocket watch conversion or not. Dating also would assist in this - I assume the Longines experts can tell us when they next won a Grand Prix after Paris?
 

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Hi guys, thanks for the views received so far. I thought Longines was made in 1900, since it is written on the back, or that does not mean production year ?

To define the age of Moser where should I look at ? I could not detect any figures on it, except ID number.
 

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Vint. Forum Co-Moderator
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1900 is the date of the exhibition at Paris where they won a Grand Prix for a watch/ watch movement - it's a bit of advertising/ marketing. Clearly that means that this watch is later than this. Can you tell us the size of the Longines?
 

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Hi guys, thanks for the views received so far. I thought Longines was made in 1900, since it is written on the back, or that does not mean production year ?

To define the age of Moser where should I look at ? I could not detect any figures on it, except ID number.

The Longines is a very crude pocket watch conversion. If the case is gold, the conversion was likely done during WWI, and not in the 20s, when most original gold cases were melted for gold, while movements (mostly hunter) were either used in new silver or nickel wristwatch cases, or in much lighter gold wristwatch cases.
 

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Hy Moser Ser#375xx (Echappement a Ancre, 15 Pierres, Qualite Maret) was produced on or before 1906, so yours is likely a bit older. Unfortunately, there is no reliable serial number database for Henry Moser. (at least none that I am aware of, or some other Moser collectors).
 

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Vint. Forum Co-Moderator
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One of the great things about WUS is that it gives us access to peope who are experts in their fields. One of the greater things is that those experts are able to explain why they are able to reach those conclusions. I am really curious as to how you can tell that this is a poor conversion from blurry photos that do not show the parts of the case that would have been altered by such a conversion. I'm also interested in why you think the converter would have used a later Longines case for that conversion. I'm sure that you have a better explanation than just to write it off to experience.
 

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I think we need to see, identify and date the movement of the Longines to be able to
give good opinion.
 

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One of the great things about WUS is that it gives us access to peope who are experts in their fields. One of the greater things is that those experts are able to explain why they are able to reach those conclusions. I am really curious as to how you can tell that this is a poor conversion from blurry photos that do not show the parts of the case that would have been altered by such a conversion. I'm also interested in why you think the converter would have used a later Longines case for that conversion. I'm sure that you have a better explanation than just to write it off to experience.
It's a fair question. I am definitely not an *expert* (whatever that means), but have had access to collectors and their vast collections of WWI conversions, and also used to attend a foreign-language forum where many watches discussed were conversions from the early XX century. I think it's a well known fact that wristwatches were preferred by soldiers for obvious reasons (even though pre-WWI wristwatches were viewed as only suitable for women), and many conversions at that time were wire lugs soldered to pocket (or pendant) watches.
While this picture is fuzzy, it can be seen that the lugs don't belong to this case, which I suspect is a woman's pendant hunter watch with back removed, as well as crown replaced (case tube filed down, bow removed, crown replaced with a crappy one, pin extended with a crappy piece of wire). A delicate Longines pocket or pendant watch severely mutilated - you don't need to be an expert or have a high-def picture to see that. Judging from the size of second subdial, I suspect that the movement size is between 11 and 13 ligne, making it a perfect candidate for conversion. Hope this helps.
 

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Vint. Forum Co-Moderator
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Thank you, that does help a lot. For me one of the most difficult things is to judge the size as the lugs would indeed indicate a small ladies hunter calibre - but with sub seconds? Yet I'm also aware that Longines have been credited with making wristwatches from 1905, but I have no idea what those cases looked like or if these lugs are the sort of design that they might have used - certainly they are not the same as a rather famous Longines wrist watch. My own collection of watches from this period tells me that ladies wristwatches were in mass production for a number of years before WWI and as a result I no longer make assumptions that a wristwatch is a conversion unless I have the direct evidence to prove it.

The caseback I think is shown in one of the photos as detached. The case design isn't particularly pocket watch to me. I suspect that short of having the watch in hand, the Longines archive might be the final arbiter as to how this watch was originally cased and of course it's date.

But thank you again, that was helpful.
 

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For me one of the most difficult things is to judge the size as the lugs would indeed indicate a small ladies hunter calibre - but with sub seconds?
If I understand you correctly, you are surprised by small ladies hunter calibers having sub seconds? I personally own a small hunter pocket/pendant watch, similar to Moser in OP's message, that also has sub seconds. The movement is 11 3/4 ligne LeCoultre, stem wind, pin set cased by Paul Buhre for the Russian Royal Court in 1904. Case diameter is approximately 35mm. Also, Omega produced cal. 13 (scaled down Calibre Omega) with sub seconds in several different grades, known as 13'' hunter calibre (listed in Omega A Journey Through Time). I believe there were even smaller Omega Calibres based on Calibre Omega with sub seconds (I'll verify when I am back home - I am currently out of town).

The watch in question (which I believe is a conversion) appears to be similar to Longines WWI transitional trench watches, but my hypothesis that it is a conversion is based on seemingly crude execution. I agree that looking inside the case at the movement may be helpful. It would also be helpful to have a sharp picture of lugs joining the case.

Cheers.
 

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If the detatched case back carries engraving or a cartouche then that would confirm that it is a PW conversion.

Early wristwatches were often wire lugged, which seems crude by modern standards, the cases were simply
drilled and the lugs soldered. Examining the attachment of these lugs won't tell much, these often wore or broke
and were repaired or replaced.
Similarly, the case tube and crown would be expected to be worn and replaced perhaps several times in the life of
this watch, my feeling is that this is an early wristwatch but without further information I can't be sure.
 

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Experience.
lol

. . . . . . I'm sure that you have a better explanation than just to write it off to experience.
Vlad, you knew you were going to get busted for that. lol (You need to dump that Ipad or get a monitor with better resolution.)

I thought the lugs looked OK (but I'm used to the old banged up ones and the replacements that I've fabricated.) I personally haven't seen a lot of large (12.5"'+), early factory wire lug cases - mostly just conversions. Worked on a bunch of small ladies, though.

Here's a good thing to remember: We're all potentially only one keystroke (or click) away from looking like pretty ignorant.

p

p.s. If any of you are having trouble estimating ww sizes from photos consider using the crown diameter as reference (its much better than nothing).
 
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