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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi,

I am seeking information on an early Trench style watch,I have been lucky to be the recipient of forum member Scott (aka SDASurrey`s) kind generosity,and he has gifted me this watch out of good will.(THANKS MATE).

The watch is pre WW1,it has a base metal case with snap on bezel and case back.The roman numeral dial has a red 12 and is enamel,just one small hairline near 11 o`clock.It is pin set and has a cylinder escapement movement with no jewels.The movement has no markings other than swiss made,the letter "M",and a brevet stamp under the balance.

My questions are.............

A)who is "M" the movement maker?
B)Given the Red 12,and the age,when would this likely have been made?
C)Given the size,40-45mm would this have been a pilots watch?EDIT:37mm-40mm
D)If it`s not "M" stamped on the movement,could it be "W"

Any thoughts/information welcome.
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P.s:There are no markings to inside case back.
 

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I am not aware of a makers mark with the letter 'M' and couldn't find anything also in mikrolisk which I am sure you also checked. I don't think it's a letter 'W', the arms are too narrow and the font character is designed as 'M'. Are there no marks on the inner case-back? The case looks like gunmetal, is it?

Not sure though if it was manufactured as a wrist watch with that size. It may have been re-cased to meet the demand of the wristwatches,especially at 40mm diameter it's something we see only around WW II.But again there are so many things we don't know yet, so everything is possible. Red and/or blue 12 o'clock mark was something at the edge of the changes due to the crown position change. Most reasonable PWs for public had the crown at 12 o'clock,so the brain imaging of conceiving the time was set accordingly.When the wrist watches started having the crown at 3 o'clock position, they came up with this red and blue 12 to draw more attention on the dial lay-out and crown positioning so that time could be read at a glance.

The brevet cross might be the key,are there no digits around that cross? If you have the tools,seeing the dial side of the movement would be useful.

Overall it looks like a beautiful watch and wearable,I am sure it ticks joyful loud.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Emre,

Mikrolisk is a little too helpful and there are many possibles for "M".Ok,so like other wristwatches of this period they are essentially converted ladies pocket watches.
Thanks for clarification that it`s an "M" not a "W" thats great and may help.The only markings so far that i can see are the "M" and brevet stamp.

The ticking is good and loud dial down,but much quieter dial up,until it stops,so i would say it`s well overdue for a service.
 

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Hi,

I am seeking information on an early Trench style watch,I have been lucky to be the recipient of forum member Scott (aka SDASurrey`s) kind generosity,and he has gifted me this watch out of good will.(THANKS MATE).

View attachment 4279930

View attachment 4279954
P.s:There are no markings to inside case back.
Nick - you are Very Welcome ! Sorry it took a while to post it - enjoy !! Cheers, Scott

Sent from SDA's iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Thanks - I used to go to both Melbourne and Sydney when I was consulting, maybe 30 times total - haven't been for a while but expect to relatively soon due to me new endeavour, so happy to look you up ! Cheers, Scott
 

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I am sure it is an M
The mark underneath is a depose mark so I think it means the 'M' is the registered trademark i.e. Marque Depose.

If its 40mm+, I doubt it was ever a ladies pendant watch.
Red 12, Roman Numerals, pin set.
1900s to 1915s
Thats just my feeling
BUT what I find strange is the red 12. If this started like as a pocket watch, I doubt the red 12. Nope, I think it was always a wristwatch and an early one too

Regards
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks Horologist007,

I know this is your area of expertise and appreciate your input.I made a mistake about the size,the case is 37mm without the crown,and 40 with.
I was under the impression that because of the brass ring on the bezel that this was more of a decorative feature and something that would suit a ladies pocket watch,more say than a dedicated wristwatch?Emre asked if the case was gunmetal,to which i`m not quite sure,it could be,and where the inside bezel has not been effected by the elements it is quite black."Marque depose" sounds french,would that make sense then that it was made in France?
 

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Great watch Nick, Scott again at his most generous!
I think it may have at least one jewel for the balance staff looking at your pics, not sure.
The "M" will be either the movement manufacturer, or the movement designation letter, but not "marque". Just my opinion.
The patent mark being in the balance well will bear no relation to the M. Are you sure there are no numbers in the well too?
A look at the front of the movement could help, if you're feeling brave!

Bob.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 · (Edited)
Thanks Bob,


I can`t see any other numbers or letters apart from what i have already mentioned.I think the next long weekend i get off from work i will decase the movement to get a better look.The pin setting on these is separate to the movement right?So with the crown and stem out,and movement holding screw out,the movement just comes out the front?Lol,of course it has a jewel to balance.Regarding the "M" it looks well articulated and could be a manufacturer,could be something else,bit of a mystery.
 

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Thanks Horologist007,

I know this is your area of expertise and appreciate your input.I made a mistake about the size,the case is 37mm without the crown,and 40 with.
I was under the impression that because of the brass ring on the bezel that this was more of a decorative feature and something that would suit a ladies pocket watch,more say than a dedicated wristwatch?Emre asked if the case was gunmetal,to which i`m not quite sure,it could be,and where the inside bezel has not been effected by the elements it is quite black."Marque depose" sounds french,would that make sense then that it was made in France?
Well even at 37mm I dont think this was a pendant watch, and with a red 12 not sure it was ever destined to be a pocket watch

All Horology is in French so Marque Depose would cover Swiss or French Movement

I agree it 'looks' very ladies, but at 37mm, just feels not.

Thats about all I can add.
Enjoy
adam
 

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A photo of the dial side may well tell us more. If there are no marks there then there could be one under the bridge plate but you'd have to very brave to actually take that off and you may not need to. A side photo will show the construction of the movement once you've removed it gone the case.

I have doubts that the M means anything. Many of my similar movements from this period have seemingly random letters stamped on them.

The brass ring is quite common with a gun metal case but I'm not sure it designates make or female. I have a similar sized and cased watch.

Bear in mind too that much of Switzerland speaks French. One jewel on the balance is standard and yes it will come out of the case as you note.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
A photo of the dial side may well tell us more. If there are no marks there then there could be one under the bridge plate but you'd have to very brave to actually take that off and you may not need to. A side photo will show the construction of the movement once you've removed it gone the case.

I have doubts that the M means anything. Many of my similar movements from this period have seemingly random letters stamped on them.

The brass ring is quite common with a gun metal case but I'm not sure it designates make or female. I have a similar sized and cased watch.

Bear in mind too that much of Switzerland speaks French. One jewel on the balance is standard and yes it will come out of the case as you note.
Ok,thanks Mirius.I have all the tools(i say that loosely though,one can never have enough tools)to decase the movement and remove the dial,my concern is that the setting lever set up is spring loaded and something will fly across the room when i remove the movement.If the dial feet are held by tiny screws around the perimeter of the movement then i may not need to remove the bridge plate,which would be good.I`ve been building up a bit of hands on experience of late with movement disassembly and rebuilding,but 100 year old watches are not something to fool around with,so i will take this one step at a time.Thanks
 
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Thanks Horologist007,

I made a mistake about the size,the case is 37mm without the crown,and/QUOTE]

I was going to say man! Your wrist must be HUGE if that was a 40-45mm! I'm no expert on trenches but I know a giant wrist when a see one. 37mm makes much more visual sense -but I suspect it still did not start out as a ladies pendant/lapel watch. good luck with it
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks Horologist007,

I made a mistake about the size,the case is 37mm without the crown,and/QUOTE]

I was going to say man! Your wrist must be HUGE if that was a 40-45mm! I'm no expert on trenches but I know a giant wrist when a see one. 37mm makes much more visual sense -but I suspect it still did not start out as a ladies pendant/lapel watch. good luck with it
Thanks Dabaeker,
I think i must have had pocket watch sizes on the brain,i`v got a slender wrist and 40-45 would be way too big,thanks your comments.
 
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I was going to say man! Your wrist must be HUGE if that was a 40-45mm! I'm no expert on trenches but I know a giant wrist when a see one. 37mm makes much more visual sense -but I suspect it still did not start out as a ladies pendant/lapel watch. good luck with it
40mm on my skinny wrists



Blackened 40mm case with gilt trim ring. Probably 1913-14 with 16'" movement. I guess these were an experiment at that point in time and on reflection, not really a ladies watch despite the gilt ring.
 

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Mirius, did you sneeze just before the pic was taken and the minute hand fell off? ;-)
Can see it in the bottom there!

Nice watch.
 

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Mirius, did you sneeze just before the pic was taken and the minute hand fell off? ;-)
Can see it in the bottom there!

Nice watch.
Lol! The seller had glued the minute hand together so when I took the dial off to record the movement for my archive it broke. I left it under the crystal as a reminder for when (or if) this one gets serviced. Actually I must do that.

Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 · (Edited)
Under the dial........................
Auto part Gear
The dial was/is held by pins that push into holes in the dial feet,can that help date the movement?

(is it just me,or did horologist007 turn into a pink gorilla)
 

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I think that Langendorf and M&ST used this style of construction. I'm sure others did too. I don't have a match in my M&ST records but there are still big gaps so that may not be very helpful.
 
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