[lukeaar]

Sold case back is a no-brainer.

Non-decorated ETA movement gives us no reason to want to look at the internals.

As for finish, I've never seen a Laco in the flesh, so I'm not exactly sure how the finish looks, but from photos it seems it's a matte finish. Is this correct?

If so, I think the standard finish is appropriate.

As for case back engraving, I like the style of the standard engraving, but on the other hand....

So, I think we should combine the two like this:

• Fl. 23883 engraved on the side of the case
• On the back we should have, in standard Laco style:
  
  Beobachtungsuhr
  Bauart: [See note 1]
  Gerat-Nr. [See note 2]
  Werk-Bez. [ETA]
  Anforderz. [Fl. 238883]
  Hersteller: LACO
  ​

Note 1:
Not sure what to put for type. Maybe WUS-LE or something similar? I don't really have any creative ideas.

Note 2:
For device number, we could either go for X/50, or (I like this second idea better), use some other kind of model number and after the standard engraving have, in an italicised 'handwriting like' script, Nr. X of 50 (as can be seen in the W-SS watch photos, but with 'of 50' appended). Was there a model number or anything attached to the original watch?

 

[lukeaar]

Thank you for that excellent summary. In that case, is this ordinance number appropriate for the watch we are honoring?

According to Dr Knirim's book it is. It is shown engraved on the side of one example and is mentioned in the caption accompanying another.

With regards to this point:

• The next page however has another photo showing the back of another sample -- same inscription, this one though has "Nr. 3". The caption for this mentions "...markings of the case inside and on the edge are those of the Luftwaffe: device no. 127-560A and spec Fl. 23883...". So apparently there's more than one that has the Fl. marking.

I guess this means we should use 127-560A for the part number, making the engraving on the caseback:

Beobachtungsuhr
Bauart: [WUS-LE]
Gerat-Nr. [127-560A]
Werk-Bez. [ETA]
Anforderz. [Fl. 238883]
Hersteller: LACO
Nr. X von 50

 

[lukeaar]

Something interesting I just found:

The watches were given an FL. number which stands for flight and the first two digits, 22, for flight control: 23 stands for navigation and 25 for radio surveillance, followed by the three digits serial number given by the institute.

another:

Re "Fl 23883":

For all practical purposes, it is what would today be a military specification, describing function and general design, but not specific to one manufacturer. Hence all 5 B-Uhren types have the sam Fl no.

In the German adminsitrative jargon, it is an "Anforderzeichen" in the Air Ministry's (Reichsluftfahrtministerium) "Gruppenübersicht der Flugzeugausrüstungsgeräte und Anforderzeichen".

 

[lukeaar]

My idea done very quickly:

 

[lukeaar]

My ideas for the design designation or "Bauart":
WUS-LE
WUS-SE
WUS-LA (limitierte auflage)
WUS-SA/WUS-S (Sonderausgabe)

I figure that whatever we choose to put on the caseback will also be used on the dial, so we should have this discussion in this thread.

 

[lukeaar]

Bauart: - This category was reserved for the movement manufacturer. So I'd be particularly opposed to putting any WUS reference in there, which is why I used ETA in my example.There may also be a connection between the name used in this field and the name that appeared on the approved RLM specifications drawing. However, every B-Uhr example I've seen used the movement's manufacturer: Wempe, IWC, Thommen,Durowe, Lange, and Stowa for example.

GerätNr. - Typically forB-Uhrs this field either contained 127-560A or 127-560B. I've read that some M-B B-Uhrs did have 127-560A engraved in them, so that would be acceptable to me. However, this field could also be used for the limited edition number.

WerkNr.- This is the movement number. In original B-Uhrs and M-B B-Uhr this was a unique number that was engraved in three locations: on the movement, on the case back and on the id chart on the inside of the case back. As I see it, wecould either place the ETA movement number here or the limited edition number,as it does double as a serial number for the watch.

Anforderz. - The ordinance number of the watch. We've already established that the LW FL23883 number was used on some of the M-B watches, so there's no reason why we couldn't use ithere as well.

Hersteller: - The presenter or assembler of the watch (some original B-Uhrs - like Laco - used movements that were made by another manufacturer, but were cased (assembled) by the"Hersteller"). The original Laco B-Uhrs were engraved with Lacher&Co. I would love to use that as well, but I'm not sure about the current legal status of the Lacher name. Looking at the impressum at the LacoShop, the company is officially known as Laco Uhrenmanufaktur GmbH, sothe only thing that we could really have engraved here is Laco GMBH or just Laco. My vote would be for the former although Laco did use LACO on my 55 mm limited B-Uhr.

With respect to the finish, the original M-B B-Uhrs were brass painted flat gray or silver. The silver models were produced in small numbers and I'd hate to own a polished B-Uhr. I think the current Laco bead-blasted case looks great and effectively represents the flat gray of the originals. Although it would be tempting to do something different with the case finish it would only increase the cost and prolong the production time, so I'd be in favour of leaving it alone.

The other question is whether or not to include the FL engraving on the side of the case.I've seem more photos of original M-B B-Uhrs without the engraving than I have with it. It probably doesn't matter either way, BUT... if we omit the engraving on the case of our limited edition watch, it WILL be different than the current Laco 45 mm series watches. Something to consider.

Sorry I must be mistaken with the bauart field. I just used the.caseback from the laco in your Sig as a guide. It has 'TYP B' in the field, which I assumed referred tothe watch style rather than a movement manufacturer.

For the watch serial number, out if 50, I'm still partial to a cursive designation post the above information.

I honestly don't mind if the side gets engraved or not I just think its something cool and unusual (compare to the vast majority of watches out there).

Finish, standard is fine.

On a side note, how do you plan to put this to vote? Multiple polls for finish, name, side, caseback?

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[lukeaar]

I whole-heartedly agree that we should only use German on the caseback.

 

[lukeaar]

Re: The Discussion so far...

Messbatterie Sonderausgabe

I agree the FL side engraving should go to a yes no vote.

Updated proposition for caseback engraving:
B-Uhr chart info:
Bauart (ETA something)
Gerat-nr (127-560A)
Werk-Nr. (2824.2 something)
Anforderz. (FL23883)
Hersteller: (LACO)

then, cursive (hand engraved?) script 'Nr. X von 50' below the chart

Then, we need somewhere to put the name. I propose following the writing on Uwe's original draft, but replacing like this:
---2011 Laco etc. replaced by "Messbatterie Sonderausgabe"
---Beobachtun.... replaced by simply "Beobachtungsuhr" (no need for the fur Messbatterie if we're calling the watch messbatterie....)

 

[lukeaar]

Re: The Discussion so far...

Another quick thought:

In order to include the year, can we add a row to the chart that is Jahr: 2011? Or is this too removed from convention?

 

[lukeaar]

Re: Case/Back - [Very] Rough Model

I realise that the b-uhr engraving traditionally went on the inside of the caseback, for the majority of the 50 watches, the inside of the caseback will only be seen by their local watch makers when the movement's due for a service. I know that's how it will be with mine.

 

[lukeaar]

Re: Case/Back - [Very] Rough Model

As for why there aren't many people contributing ideas, I think the project didn't go in the direction that some wanted, so they bailed. It is interesting to look at the number of views for each topic though. There must be a fair few 'lurkers' who are following closely but not saying anything. This may simply be because they're happy with the direction that we're taking it and they don't have anything to add (I hope this is what it is!).

 

[lukeaar]

Re: Case/Back - [Very] Rough Model

I prefer none as well, but lately I've been wondering about having the LE number engraved there instead. Something simple like "27/50". My reasoning for not including the FL marking is simple; not all of the original Messbatterie watches came with it. Also, if we did use it I think it would just look obvious that we used the case from the 45 mm B-Uhr. With nothing there - or the LE number in its place - it would instantly differentiate itself from the normal production case.

Great idea.

 

[lukeaar]

I've been checking back here every day for the past 3 weeks waiting for either a vote to be called or for someone else to say something. I really have nothing more to say on the topic of the caseback.

This is what I meant about it being easy to increase the pace of the project by calling votes when discussion slows...

 

[lukeaar]

48, not 50!

It is good to be busy!

Don't want to give me one?

 

[lukeaar]

If we decide to engrave the side of the case with the LE number, is it necessary to have it on the caseback?

With font, I agree to match the original as much as possible.

 

[lukeaar]

+1 for 'M'

I don't know what to think about the idea for the watch specs to be included around the edge. Half of my thinks it's a cool idea, the other half thinks the simplicity of the current designs is better (not to mention closer to historical accuracy... although we have and will take liberties elsewhere).

 

[lukeaar]

I seem to recall the decision agreed upon being that we would use the standard finish. It was discussed in the case thread.

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[lukeaar]

It is acceptable to use ss. Either way is fine.

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[lukeaar]

Knirim's book does have a photo of internal SS correspondence regarding the watch and it uses the Eszett when discussing Meßbatterie watches, which is why that's the version I would lean toward.

Sounds good to me

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[lukeaar]

Sounds good. I'm keen to keep moving.

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