[Uwe W.]

This is as good a time as any to begin discussing the back of the project watch. Should it be a display or solid back? Should there be engraving, and if so, what should the engraving be?

At the same time we should plan which finish the watch and case back should have. The same as the standard finish on the Laco B-Uhr or something different?

Please feel free to post your ideas on these elements. It would also be great if anyone with drawing or design abilities could give us a hand with preliminary sketches; we had a couple of talented individuals at the start of this project submit some custom dial designs, but I'm not sure if they're still with us.

 

[Uwe W.]

I have just one question: What does the Fl. 238883 on the side of the case mean?

The FL engraving is an official ordinance number. Aircraft instruments and clocks, for example, had to be built to certain specifications (see the spec sheet that Janne posted) and were then engraved with their specific part (or ordinance) number. All of the other period instruments in my collection have their own FL numbers on them somewhere. In the case of the B-Uhr it was engraved on the side of the case.

 

[Uwe W.]

I'm also in favour of a solid case back, mostly because it would give us a place to really stamp the exclusivity of this watch.

The typical B-Uhr engraving list that Lukeaar quoted actually appeared on the inside of the case back of originals. We've all become accustomed to it being on the outside where we can appreciate its historical reference. I think something similar would be a step in the right direction.

The silver-cased example was a special version. I personally don't think we should use it as a template for our design, especially since there are other examples available for reference.

The back of the standard issued watch artillery watch was engraved in the same way that the LW B-Uhrs were. They only had a number that matched the one engraved on the movement.

In my mind this means we have a blank canvas to work from and are free to do what we want.

 

[Uwe W.]

In that case, is this ordinance number appropriate for the watch we are honoring?

I find it strange that those observarion pieces had the same FL number as the 55mm B-uhren. In the requirements the watch should be 55mm and have a certain dial design ( 2 different designs) This observation watch was 65mm, a different dial.

That's a good question, but I believe the answer is yes for the simple reason that there were originals that had the FL23883 engraving.

Janne, there seems to have been a number of permitted variances in the FL 23883 specifications. It's true that there were two main dial baumusters, but there were also variations in those dials - different fonts, indicies, etc... - other elements of the watches such as their crowns also varied from manufacturer to manufacturer. I can't find proof at the moment, but I seem to recall having seen earlier, smaller B-Uhrs that also used the same FL designation. We would probably need to know more about how the FL numbers were issued in general, but when I look at the ordinance lists they seem to concern themselves more with the purpose of the instrument as opposed to its exact design. Therefore, the 65 mm observation watch could easily fall into the FL23883 designation because of its intended use.

 

[Uwe W.]

The Gerat Nr reflects the movement number. Or am I wrong?

No, the "Werk-Nr." reflects the movement number.

"Gerät-Nr." is instrument number, which typically was either 127-560A1 or 127-560B. I used to think that the A and B might refer to the dial type, but then I came across Typ-B dials that were stamped with the 560A1.

 

[Uwe W.]

the 560A1, could they have been upgraded A-dials? Originaly A- dials, retrofitted with the B-dial? Nerd as I am, I find this piece of history very interesting!

That's an interesting possibility. I'll have to look into that a little further. I could use the movement numbers to test your theory, assuming of course that they would have been produced in chronological order. The only immediate weakness I see in this is that the early A-Muster watches already were stamped with 560A. Would they have already known then that there would be a B-Muster to follow and that there would be the need to stamp the additional A after the 560?

 

[Uwe W.]

I think the caseback depends on which dial/watch we will have as an example.

As I mentioned, the case back on the original is pretty much a blank canvas. Here are two examples:

 

[Uwe W.]

Just a sample case back I was fooling around with:

 

[Uwe W.]

I realize this is off topic, as we have yet to get into the details of the dial, but while I am typically partial to sterile dials for this sort of watch, it does make some sense, given the heritage, to have something on the dial. Maybe a WUS-LE and nothing more? That would take the watch away from its heritage without being intrusive.

There will be a thread dedicated to the dial and I'm sure it will promote a healthy discussion. I'd suggest that we stay on the subject of the case back and the finish of the watch so that we can continue to move forward.

 

[Uwe W.]

WUS-SE= WUS Spezial Edition (German spelling OK? No?) We already did a WUS LimitedEdition. In 2008.

Bauart: - This category was reserved for the movement manufacturer. So I'd be particularly opposed to putting any WUS reference in there, which is why I used ETA in my example.There may also be a connection between the name used in this field and the name that appeared on the approved RLM specifications drawing. However, every B-Uhr example I've seen used the movement's manufacturer: Wempe, IWC, Thommen,Durowe, Lange, and Stowa for example.

GerätNr. - Typically forB-Uhrs this field either contained 127-560A or 127-560B. I've read that some M-B B-Uhrs did have 127-560A engraved in them, so that would be acceptable to me. However, this field could also be used for the limited edition number.

WerkNr.- This is the movement number. In original B-Uhrs and M-B B-Uhr this was a unique number that was engraved in three locations: on the movement, on the case back and on the id chart on the inside of the case back. As I see it, wecould either place the ETA movement number here or the limited edition number,as it does double as a serial number for the watch.

Anforderz. - The ordinance number of the watch. We've already established that the LW FL23883 number was used on some of the M-B watches, so there's no reason why we couldn't use ithere as well.

Hersteller: - The presenter or assembler of the watch (some original B-Uhrs - like Laco - used movements that were made by another manufacturer, but were cased (assembled) by the"Hersteller"). The original Laco B-Uhrs were engraved with Lacher&Co. I would love to use that as well, but I'm not sure about the current legal status of the Lacher name. Looking at the impressum at the LacoShop, the company is officially known as Laco Uhrenmanufaktur GmbH, sothe only thing that we could really have engraved here is Laco GMBH or just Laco. My vote would be for the former although Laco did use LACO on my 55 mm limited B-Uhr.

With respect to the finish, the original M-B B-Uhrs were brass painted flat gray or silver. The silver models were produced in small numbers and I'd hate to own a polished B-Uhr. I think the current Laco bead-blasted case looks great and effectively represents the flat gray of the originals. Although it would be tempting to do something different with the case finish it would only increase the cost and prolong the production time, so I'd be in favour of leaving it alone.

The other question is whether or not to include the FL engraving on the side of the case.I've seem more photos of original M-B B-Uhrs without the engraving than I have with it. It probably doesn't matter either way, BUT... if we omit the engraving on the case of our limited edition watch, it WILL be different than the current Laco 45 mm series watches. Something to consider.

 

[Uwe W.]

The B-uhr cases were Nickel plated, not painted.

You're right, I shouldn't have used the word painted, especially since I knew that wasn't the case (no pun intended). I've copied and pasted the description of the watch by its original manufacturer from my post in the CASE discussion thread:

A. Lange & Söhne details the construction of the M-B B-Uhr for a 1943 production run of 22 watches :

"Beobachtungsuhren, Werk Kal. 48 mm, Gehäuse als Fliegerarmbanduhr gearbeitet, aus Messing hergestellt und grau mattiert, mit Lederriemen, genäht und doppelt genietet, Uhr mit heraussiebarer Krone un Anhaltsvorrichtung, Werk durch Lederring in der Gehäuseführung gasdicht abgeschlossen, mit Spezialzifferblatt vie von der WaffenßSS vorgeschrieben, anstelle der Zahlen III und IV verlängerte Teilungsgestriche 15 und 45, mit Leuchtziffern und zeigern, Sekunde springend, Sekunderzeiger am rückwärtigen Ende mit leuchtenem Strich versehen."

my translation:

"Observation watches, movement caliber 48 mm, case built as an aviator's wrist watch, made of brass with a matte grey finish, with leather strap - stitched and double riveted, watch with pullable crown and hacking device, movement gas sealed by a leather ring in the housing, special dial as specified by the Waffen SS, instead of the numbers III and IV and extended partition using 15 and 45, with luminous numerals and hands, second jump?, second hand with luminous bar at its back."

And from an auction description of the watch:

"Geh.: Metall, grau mattiert, Druckboden."

my translation:

"Case: metal, matte grey, compression fit case back"

Knirim clairfies the matte grey description in his book as being nickled brass.

Since our watch will neither be made of brass or have a nickeled finish, it's important to focus on the visual description of it being a matte grey. It's a description that you could easily apply to the current Laco B-Uhr case.

 

[Uwe W.]

On a side note, how do you plan to put this to vote? Multiple polls for finish, name, side, caseback?

I'll have to wait to see how this thread progresses. I'd like to get everything done with one vote. This might be possible if certain elements are automatically eliminated because of a lack of interest. For example, if no one voices interest in a display back then we don't need to vote on it. Same with the finish and side engraving. We should also be able to narrow down the case back engraving options to three or four choices. Essentially once everything has been thoroughly discussed we'll know what will need to be voted on.

What sort of timeline are we working with before the next vote? I'd be able to draft a rough case model to evaluate the finishing, etc. but I expect it to take longer than those preliminary dial offerings.

Yee-haw, someone with CAD talent! :-!

I raised the subject of a timeframe in the GENERAL discussion thread, but it didn't get a lot of response. The bottom line is that either we have to ram this project through extremely quickly so that we hit Laco's next production schedule and get a Fall delivery date for the watch - or - we can take our time, enjoy the process, and not worry about how quickly Laco can build the watch for us. My experience with project watches strongly leans toward taking the time that is necessary. I can't wait to have this watch on my wrist and get excited at the thought of it, but I also don't want to rush things. The answer to your question will come from everyone else's reaction to this choice. I'd like to ask anyone with an opinion on this subject to post it in the GENERAL forum and not here as it is relevant to the entire project, not just this discussion.

 

[Uwe W.]

The D5 is made by a Lacher owned company (Durowe), so I think we can say it is in-house...

The original M-B B-Uhr didn't use the D5; it had a Lange & Soehne Cal. 48.1 movement. Also, I believe the Durowe name is now currently owned by Stowa. I had thought to use Lacher only to create a "what if" label. What if Lacher (Laco) had also been contracted to build the M-B, what would the label have looked like? So my idea was to try and make the engraving look like it would have had that actually happened.

There must be a way to distinguish the modified movement. Maybe 2824.2 G? (Geschlachtet).

That's an interesting and good point. It really isn't an ETA 2824.2 once it has been modified, so I agree that the movement description should reflect this. I can just imagine someone buying a used one many years from now and thinking it was broken because it wasn't beginning to run after being shaken back and forth!

I would prefer that the German language onlywas used on the caseback, not a mix.. Sonderausgabe instead of Special Edition.

It doesn't matter to me either way, but I appreciate the concern for consistency. I'd like to see what others think about this.

What was the research center called where the V rockets were developed? It would be cool to have some connection there. Pennemunde (SP) range?

Yes, development was conducted at Peenemünde - among other places - and I had thought about an engraving of a rocket or referencing W. v. Braun. However, I've recently read somewhere that there isn't any documented evidence that these watches were actually used there. Knirim's book mentions the rocket program in the introduction of the W-SS section but makes no mention of the M-B B-Uhr being used for timing rocket flights. In Knirim's own words "where it was used has still not been identified even though I spent much time researching in a lot of German archives. Maybe this information was confiscated by the allies at the end of the war."

Despite this, others who have produced versions of this watch are quick to claim the watch's lineage is related to von Braun and Peenemünde. It makes a nice story, but given that this is such a gray area I'd be inclined to omit any reference to the rocket program. The original watch was produced as a tool; we will do well to create that sentiment without getting mired in the speculation of how and where it was used.

 

[Uwe W.]

If the historical tie-up with Peenemünde is vague -- why not along the lines of artillery observation, if this was the original intent? or the artillery school where some of the watches were delivered to...

In my design I had as part of the engraving "Beobachtungsuhr fur Messbatterie", which means "observation watch for measurement battery" (battery of course relating to an artillery battery). It's the long form of the M-B acronym that appears on the dial and explains the purpose of the watch. The Glau connection is referenced in Knirim's book but it only pertains to one shipment of M-B watches, so again, I'd be very hesitant to engrave Glau anywhere on our watch.

One thing comes to mind: Was this also called a Sextant Watch? I recall reading some text designating it as such.

Good question. I suppose it's because any observation watch - including the 55 mm B-Uhr - had to be used with a sextant as part of its navigational purpose. It would make more sense to call the LW B-Uhr a sextant watch than the M-B, which it would seem was used more as a timer. Hand sextants use mirrors and I've seen them used with a watch strapped to them, so perhaps someone saw the reversed numbers on the M-B dial and assumed it was for use with a sextant. Other than sales rhetoric for other manufacturer's watches, I've never seen the term sextant watch used with the M-B.

 

[Uwe W.]

Name Calling

Something else just came to mind. Other projects often end up giving the project and watch a name. Is this something we would like to do? For example, I recently participated in a Steinhart project watch that was called the Proteus.

I kind of like the idea of a name - mostly because Laco-WUS Special Limited Edition doesn't exactly sound very sexy...

 

[Uwe W.]

Sysifos?

OK, I'll bite. What is that supposed to mean? I was thinking of a name that would be a little more fun, like Big Bertha!

About the use: I have a little bit experience of directing Artillery fire and I just can not find a use for this watch, taking pictures through a scope and needing an exact time reference. I have been racking my memory the few old text books I have left, searching the internet. Nothing.

There are two elements of this watch that I think are key in determining its use. One is the reversed numbers for photographic use and the other is its sub-second indicies. If you use or train with production artillery pieces, you will already know the properties of the weapon and its ammunition and be able to put rounds on target based on established firing data. However, if an artillery piece or ammunition type is a prototype or in its experimental phase, someone will have to test fire it and measure the results to determine all the variables so that someone in the field will someday be able to hit a distant target. You would think that a stopwatch and rangefinder would be best suited to this type of work; stopwatches were in fact produced for artillery use, conceivably for that purpose.

However, what if you also wanted to film and record test activity as part of the research process? It would be easy to take a small leap and how the M-B B-Uhr could well have been used for such a purpose - or even for recording things such as the burn time of a rocket during test firings at Peenemünde. The fact that no records of its use have been found certainly suggests that it was used for something that was highly classified - like a rocket or jet engine development program.

 

[Uwe W.]

Have you seen this link, they go into some detail abut this watch:"These watches seem to have been used together with a device called a mirror sextant for tracking the flight paths of the V-missiles during testing. Obviously exact time, that could only be read though a mirror while using the device, was necessary to read this mirror sextant."

Thanks for posting that link Lume.

Well, if you ever wanted proof that you shouldn't believe everything that you read on the web, you have it. That post was laden with errors. Sextants are used for navigation - primarily to calculate your latitude - but it can also be used to find your position on a map by shooting two landmarks. I own a sextant and would love if the author of that post would explain to me how I can use my navigation instrument to "track the flight path" of a rocket. I'm equally impressed that he has also located evidence that definitively connects the M-B with the rocket program.

 

[Uwe W.]

Your explanation about why it may be needed in Artillery - I do not know. By timing the shot the only thing you achieve is the average speed of the projectile. The rest is done by observers. You can not follow the projectile, so no need for the binoculars. At distance, it is not possible to see theimpact with any accurancy. That is the reason for airborne or stationary observers.

I've been on artillery ranges and could most certainly see the impact with binoculars - and rangefinders determine the distance of the impact. So determining the average speed of a projectile is important, especially if you're tracking a non-stationary target. In a defensive role a timer or M-B type watch can also be used for sound ranging. We are of course talking about the state of technology in the late '30s.

Regardless, as you stated it is a unique design and I'm quite stoked about this project. It's going to be a very cool watch. :-!

 

[Uwe W.]

Perhaps if we contact the makers they will tell us what they know?
BTW Here's the other watch, they named it the Aristo Sextant

I doubt if they know anymore than what we've dug up or Dr. Knirim has published in his book and online. If anything I suspect that marketing a "sextant" watch is more politically friendly than promoting the fact they were commissioned by the W-SS.

Aristo isn't the only manufacturer of these. I bought this one years ago; then as now, I was intrigued by the dial and the 'story' that it had something to do with Werner von Braun.

 

[Uwe W.]

The Discussion so far...

So it looks like the consensus so far is to use the existing case finish. And most seem indifferent to whether or not the FL engraving appears on the side of the case.

In terms of voting for these two items, unless someone states that they would like another finish, I won't include it on the ballot. There will be a 'yes' or 'no' option for the FL engraving.

It also seems like most like the idea of calling this watch the "Messbatterie". Or should it be the "Messbatterie B-Uhr"? Or "Messbatterie Special Edition"? "Messbatterie Limited Edition?" We could also include a name in the vote, but other than a guy pushing a rock up the hill, there hasn't been any other suggestions for a name - and no one liked my "Big Bertha" idea... go figure!

With respect to the case back, the idea of having a B-Uhr type id chart engraved on the back is very popular. If we're going to do this then we'll still need to decide on a couple of items for it:

• a designation for the modified 2824.2 movement
• where to put each watch's LE number

We should also discuss what other information we might like to have engraved on the case back. Some of the specs of the watch as appears on some other Laco watches? Or maybe a more detailed description of it being a special WUS project?

Things are moving along quite nicely, but it would be good to narrow down the engraving options to three or four choices to make voting less complicated.