[lukeaar]

Something interesting I just found:

The watches were given an FL. number which stands for flight and the first two digits, 22, for flight control: 23 stands for navigation and 25 for radio surveillance, followed by the three digits serial number given by the institute.

another:

Re "Fl 23883":

For all practical purposes, it is what would today be a military specification, describing function and general design, but not specific to one manufacturer. Hence all 5 B-Uhren types have the sam Fl no.

In the German adminsitrative jargon, it is an "Anforderzeichen" in the Air Ministry's (Reichsluftfahrtministerium) "Gruppenübersicht der Flugzeugausrüstungsgeräte und Anforderzeichen".

 

[Uwe W.]

I think the caseback depends on which dial/watch we will have as an example.

As I mentioned, the case back on the original is pretty much a blank canvas. Here are two examples:

 

[Uwe W.]

Just a sample case back I was fooling around with:

 

[lukeaar]

My idea done very quickly:

 

[lukeaar]

My ideas for the design designation or "Bauart":
WUS-LE
WUS-SE
WUS-LA (limitierte auflage)
WUS-SA/WUS-S (Sonderausgabe)

I figure that whatever we choose to put on the caseback will also be used on the dial, so we should have this discussion in this thread.

 

[Janne]

Some forumers might think the WUS-SA is too close to history.
I feel that the dial should be marked.

 

[Manolete]

I realize this is off topic, as we have yet to get into the details of the dial, but while I am typically partial to sterile dials for this sort of watch, it does make some sense, given the heritage, to have something on the dial. Maybe a WUS-LE and nothing more? That would take the watch away from its heritage without being intrusive.

Some forumers might think the WUS-SA is too close to history.
I feel that the dial should be marked.

 

[Janne]

My ideas for the design designation or "Bauart":
WUS-LE
WUS-SE
WUS-LA (limitierte auflage)
WUS-SA/WUS-S (Sonderausgabe)

I figure that whatever we choose to put on the caseback will also be used on the dial, so we should have this discussion in this thread.

Agree.

I like all, except the WUS- SA.
I like particullary WUS-SE and WUS-S

WUS-SE = WUS Spezial Edition (German spelling OK? No?)

We already did a WUS Limited Edition. In 2008.

 

[Uwe W.]

I realize this is off topic, as we have yet to get into the details of the dial, but while I am typically partial to sterile dials for this sort of watch, it does make some sense, given the heritage, to have something on the dial. Maybe a WUS-LE and nothing more? That would take the watch away from its heritage without being intrusive.

There will be a thread dedicated to the dial and I'm sure it will promote a healthy discussion. I'd suggest that we stay on the subject of the case back and the finish of the watch so that we can continue to move forward.

 

[Uwe W.]

WUS-SE= WUS Spezial Edition (German spelling OK? No?) We already did a WUS LimitedEdition. In 2008.

Bauart: - This category was reserved for the movement manufacturer. So I'd be particularly opposed to putting any WUS reference in there, which is why I used ETA in my example.There may also be a connection between the name used in this field and the name that appeared on the approved RLM specifications drawing. However, every B-Uhr example I've seen used the movement's manufacturer: Wempe, IWC, Thommen,Durowe, Lange, and Stowa for example.

GerätNr. - Typically forB-Uhrs this field either contained 127-560A or 127-560B. I've read that some M-B B-Uhrs did have 127-560A engraved in them, so that would be acceptable to me. However, this field could also be used for the limited edition number.

WerkNr.- This is the movement number. In original B-Uhrs and M-B B-Uhr this was a unique number that was engraved in three locations: on the movement, on the case back and on the id chart on the inside of the case back. As I see it, wecould either place the ETA movement number here or the limited edition number,as it does double as a serial number for the watch.

Anforderz. - The ordinance number of the watch. We've already established that the LW FL23883 number was used on some of the M-B watches, so there's no reason why we couldn't use ithere as well.

Hersteller: - The presenter or assembler of the watch (some original B-Uhrs - like Laco - used movements that were made by another manufacturer, but were cased (assembled) by the"Hersteller"). The original Laco B-Uhrs were engraved with Lacher&Co. I would love to use that as well, but I'm not sure about the current legal status of the Lacher name. Looking at the impressum at the LacoShop, the company is officially known as Laco Uhrenmanufaktur GmbH, sothe only thing that we could really have engraved here is Laco GMBH or just Laco. My vote would be for the former although Laco did use LACO on my 55 mm limited B-Uhr.

With respect to the finish, the original M-B B-Uhrs were brass painted flat gray or silver. The silver models were produced in small numbers and I'd hate to own a polished B-Uhr. I think the current Laco bead-blasted case looks great and effectively represents the flat gray of the originals. Although it would be tempting to do something different with the case finish it would only increase the cost and prolong the production time, so I'd be in favour of leaving it alone.

The other question is whether or not to include the FL engraving on the side of the case.I've seem more photos of original M-B B-Uhrs without the engraving than I have with it. It probably doesn't matter either way, BUT... if we omit the engraving on the case of our limited edition watch, it WILL be different than the current Laco 45 mm series watches. Something to consider.

 

[Janne]

Sounds good to me.

The B-uhr cases were Nickel plated, not painted. Maybe an amateurish restorer painted a severely oxydised/damaged case?

The surface treatment Laco does (particel blasting) is amost a 100% true visual copy of the original finish

I think I would prefer the case side to be without the FL number. On the back is enough!

 

[Uwe W.]

The B-uhr cases were Nickel plated, not painted.

You're right, I shouldn't have used the word painted, especially since I knew that wasn't the case (no pun intended). I've copied and pasted the description of the watch by its original manufacturer from my post in the CASE discussion thread:

A. Lange & Söhne details the construction of the M-B B-Uhr for a 1943 production run of 22 watches :

"Beobachtungsuhren, Werk Kal. 48 mm, Gehäuse als Fliegerarmbanduhr gearbeitet, aus Messing hergestellt und grau mattiert, mit Lederriemen, genäht und doppelt genietet, Uhr mit heraussiebarer Krone un Anhaltsvorrichtung, Werk durch Lederring in der Gehäuseführung gasdicht abgeschlossen, mit Spezialzifferblatt vie von der WaffenßSS vorgeschrieben, anstelle der Zahlen III und IV verlängerte Teilungsgestriche 15 und 45, mit Leuchtziffern und zeigern, Sekunde springend, Sekunderzeiger am rückwärtigen Ende mit leuchtenem Strich versehen."

my translation:

"Observation watches, movement caliber 48 mm, case built as an aviator's wrist watch, made of brass with a matte grey finish, with leather strap - stitched and double riveted, watch with pullable crown and hacking device, movement gas sealed by a leather ring in the housing, special dial as specified by the Waffen SS, instead of the numbers III and IV and extended partition using 15 and 45, with luminous numerals and hands, second jump?, second hand with luminous bar at its back."

And from an auction description of the watch:

"Geh.: Metall, grau mattiert, Druckboden."

my translation:

"Case: metal, matte grey, compression fit case back"

Knirim clairfies the matte grey description in his book as being nickled brass.

Since our watch will neither be made of brass or have a nickeled finish, it's important to focus on the visual description of it being a matte grey. It's a description that you could easily apply to the current Laco B-Uhr case.

 

[Janne]

Absolutely. The visual is as close as you can get. In the unworn areas on my -44 watch, it looks virtually the same.

 

[lukeaar]

Bauart: - This category was reserved for the movement manufacturer. So I'd be particularly opposed to putting any WUS reference in there, which is why I used ETA in my example.There may also be a connection between the name used in this field and the name that appeared on the approved RLM specifications drawing. However, every B-Uhr example I've seen used the movement's manufacturer: Wempe, IWC, Thommen,Durowe, Lange, and Stowa for example.

GerätNr. - Typically forB-Uhrs this field either contained 127-560A or 127-560B. I've read that some M-B B-Uhrs did have 127-560A engraved in them, so that would be acceptable to me. However, this field could also be used for the limited edition number.

WerkNr.- This is the movement number. In original B-Uhrs and M-B B-Uhr this was a unique number that was engraved in three locations: on the movement, on the case back and on the id chart on the inside of the case back. As I see it, wecould either place the ETA movement number here or the limited edition number,as it does double as a serial number for the watch.

Anforderz. - The ordinance number of the watch. We've already established that the LW FL23883 number was used on some of the M-B watches, so there's no reason why we couldn't use ithere as well.

Hersteller: - The presenter or assembler of the watch (some original B-Uhrs - like Laco - used movements that were made by another manufacturer, but were cased (assembled) by the"Hersteller"). The original Laco B-Uhrs were engraved with Lacher&Co. I would love to use that as well, but I'm not sure about the current legal status of the Lacher name. Looking at the impressum at the LacoShop, the company is officially known as Laco Uhrenmanufaktur GmbH, sothe only thing that we could really have engraved here is Laco GMBH or just Laco. My vote would be for the former although Laco did use LACO on my 55 mm limited B-Uhr.

With respect to the finish, the original M-B B-Uhrs were brass painted flat gray or silver. The silver models were produced in small numbers and I'd hate to own a polished B-Uhr. I think the current Laco bead-blasted case looks great and effectively represents the flat gray of the originals. Although it would be tempting to do something different with the case finish it would only increase the cost and prolong the production time, so I'd be in favour of leaving it alone.

The other question is whether or not to include the FL engraving on the side of the case.I've seem more photos of original M-B B-Uhrs without the engraving than I have with it. It probably doesn't matter either way, BUT... if we omit the engraving on the case of our limited edition watch, it WILL be different than the current Laco 45 mm series watches. Something to consider.

Sorry I must be mistaken with the bauart field. I just used the.caseback from the laco in your Sig as a guide. It has 'TYP B' in the field, which I assumed referred tothe watch style rather than a movement manufacturer.

For the watch serial number, out if 50, I'm still partial to a cursive designation post the above information.

I honestly don't mind if the side gets engraved or not I just think its something cool and unusual (compare to the vast majority of watches out there).

Finish, standard is fine.

On a side note, how do you plan to put this to vote? Multiple polls for finish, name, side, caseback?

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

 

[Manera]

What sort of timeline are we working with before the next vote? I'd be able to draft a rough case model to evaluate the finishing, etc. but I expect it to take longer than those preliminary dial offerings.

For this piece, I too am in favour of the solid caseback and matte finishing. I look forward to lots of great conversation about the engraving options.

 

[Janne]

The D5 is made by a Lacher owned company (Durowe), so I think we can say it is in-house...

 

[Janne]

Just a sample case back I was fooling around with:

Not bad!

Instead of the plain ETA - ETA SA

01/50

There must be a way to distinguish the modified movement. Maybe 2824.2 G? (Geschlachtet) ;-)

I would prefer that the German language onlywas used on the caseback, not a mix..

Sonderausgabe instead of Special Edition

What was the research center called where the V rockets were developed? It would be cool to have some connection there.

Pennemunde range? Artillery range?

 

[Uwe W.]

On a side note, how do you plan to put this to vote? Multiple polls for finish, name, side, caseback?

I'll have to wait to see how this thread progresses. I'd like to get everything done with one vote. This might be possible if certain elements are automatically eliminated because of a lack of interest. For example, if no one voices interest in a display back then we don't need to vote on it. Same with the finish and side engraving. We should also be able to narrow down the case back engraving options to three or four choices. Essentially once everything has been thoroughly discussed we'll know what will need to be voted on.

What sort of timeline are we working with before the next vote? I'd be able to draft a rough case model to evaluate the finishing, etc. but I expect it to take longer than those preliminary dial offerings.

Yee-haw, someone with CAD talent! :-!

I raised the subject of a timeframe in the GENERAL discussion thread, but it didn't get a lot of response. The bottom line is that either we have to ram this project through extremely quickly so that we hit Laco's next production schedule and get a Fall delivery date for the watch - or - we can take our time, enjoy the process, and not worry about how quickly Laco can build the watch for us. My experience with project watches strongly leans toward taking the time that is necessary. I can't wait to have this watch on my wrist and get excited at the thought of it, but I also don't want to rush things. The answer to your question will come from everyone else's reaction to this choice. I'd like to ask anyone with an opinion on this subject to post it in the GENERAL forum and not here as it is relevant to the entire project, not just this discussion.

 

[Uwe W.]

The D5 is made by a Lacher owned company (Durowe), so I think we can say it is in-house...

The original M-B B-Uhr didn't use the D5; it had a Lange & Soehne Cal. 48.1 movement. Also, I believe the Durowe name is now currently owned by Stowa. I had thought to use Lacher only to create a "what if" label. What if Lacher (Laco) had also been contracted to build the M-B, what would the label have looked like? So my idea was to try and make the engraving look like it would have had that actually happened.

There must be a way to distinguish the modified movement. Maybe 2824.2 G? (Geschlachtet).

That's an interesting and good point. It really isn't an ETA 2824.2 once it has been modified, so I agree that the movement description should reflect this. I can just imagine someone buying a used one many years from now and thinking it was broken because it wasn't beginning to run after being shaken back and forth!

I would prefer that the German language onlywas used on the caseback, not a mix.. Sonderausgabe instead of Special Edition.

It doesn't matter to me either way, but I appreciate the concern for consistency. I'd like to see what others think about this.

What was the research center called where the V rockets were developed? It would be cool to have some connection there. Pennemunde (SP) range?

Yes, development was conducted at Peenemünde - among other places - and I had thought about an engraving of a rocket or referencing W. v. Braun. However, I've recently read somewhere that there isn't any documented evidence that these watches were actually used there. Knirim's book mentions the rocket program in the introduction of the W-SS section but makes no mention of the M-B B-Uhr being used for timing rocket flights. In Knirim's own words "where it was used has still not been identified even though I spent much time researching in a lot of German archives. Maybe this information was confiscated by the allies at the end of the war."

Despite this, others who have produced versions of this watch are quick to claim the watch's lineage is related to von Braun and Peenemünde. It makes a nice story, but given that this is such a gray area I'd be inclined to omit any reference to the rocket program. The original watch was produced as a tool; we will do well to create that sentiment without getting mired in the speculation of how and where it was used.

 

[lukeaar]

I whole-heartedly agree that we should only use German on the caseback.