[kubelwagen]

Agree with all-German text on the caseback, as well maintaining the matte finish on case. Also on having a special ETA designation -- makes it look unique and interesting.

If the historical tie-up with Peenemünde is vague -- why not along the lines of artillery observation, if this was the original intent? or the artillery school where some of the watches were delivered to...

One thing comes to mind: Was this also called a Sextant Watch? I recall reading some text designating it as such.

Stumbled on some more case pictures on the net. Nr 215682 -- said to have been sent to the artillery school in Glau. No FL engraving on the side, and it seems the W-SS inscription was erased from the dial. Man, this goes for 15-20KEuros :-x

From the site Auktionen Dr. H. Crott - Spezialauktionshaus für hochwertige Uhren:

 

[Janne]

Agree with all of you. Messe-Baterie, Glau etc is better linking than Peenemuende (I know, Pennemunde is in Italy :-d)

That piece has certainly been butchered. W-SS scraped off, crown not correct. But, wotrh every Cent.

 

[Uwe W.]

If the historical tie-up with Peenemünde is vague -- why not along the lines of artillery observation, if this was the original intent? or the artillery school where some of the watches were delivered to...

In my design I had as part of the engraving "Beobachtungsuhr fur Messbatterie", which means "observation watch for measurement battery" (battery of course relating to an artillery battery). It's the long form of the M-B acronym that appears on the dial and explains the purpose of the watch. The Glau connection is referenced in Knirim's book but it only pertains to one shipment of M-B watches, so again, I'd be very hesitant to engrave Glau anywhere on our watch.

One thing comes to mind: Was this also called a Sextant Watch? I recall reading some text designating it as such.

Good question. I suppose it's because any observation watch - including the 55 mm B-Uhr - had to be used with a sextant as part of its navigational purpose. It would make more sense to call the LW B-Uhr a sextant watch than the M-B, which it would seem was used more as a timer. Hand sextants use mirrors and I've seen them used with a watch strapped to them, so perhaps someone saw the reversed numbers on the M-B dial and assumed it was for use with a sextant. Other than sales rhetoric for other manufacturer's watches, I've never seen the term sextant watch used with the M-B.

 

[Uwe W.]

Name Calling

Something else just came to mind. Other projects often end up giving the project and watch a name. Is this something we would like to do? For example, I recently participated in a Steinhart project watch that was called the Proteus.

I kind of like the idea of a name - mostly because Laco-WUS Special Limited Edition doesn't exactly sound very sexy...

 

[Janne]

Re: Name Calling

Sysifos?

Unless we call it WUA-Laco SonderAusfuhrung

 

[Janne]

The original M-B B-Uhr didn't use the D5; it had a Lange & Soehne Cal. 48.1 movement
.

I referred to the original Laco B-uhren. They had a D5 inhouse movement. Not a movement that was made by an outside company.

 

[Janne]

About the use: I have a little bit experience of directing Artillery fire and I just can not find a use for this watch, taking pictures through a scope and needing an exact time reference. I have been racking my memory the few old text books I have left, searching the internet. Nothing.

Anybody out there with Artillery experience?

 

[Uwe W.]

Sysifos?

OK, I'll bite. What is that supposed to mean? I was thinking of a name that would be a little more fun, like Big Bertha!

About the use: I have a little bit experience of directing Artillery fire and I just can not find a use for this watch, taking pictures through a scope and needing an exact time reference. I have been racking my memory the few old text books I have left, searching the internet. Nothing.

There are two elements of this watch that I think are key in determining its use. One is the reversed numbers for photographic use and the other is its sub-second indicies. If you use or train with production artillery pieces, you will already know the properties of the weapon and its ammunition and be able to put rounds on target based on established firing data. However, if an artillery piece or ammunition type is a prototype or in its experimental phase, someone will have to test fire it and measure the results to determine all the variables so that someone in the field will someday be able to hit a distant target. You would think that a stopwatch and rangefinder would be best suited to this type of work; stopwatches were in fact produced for artillery use, conceivably for that purpose.

However, what if you also wanted to film and record test activity as part of the research process? It would be easy to take a small leap and how the M-B B-Uhr could well have been used for such a purpose - or even for recording things such as the burn time of a rocket during test firings at Peenemünde. The fact that no records of its use have been found certainly suggests that it was used for something that was highly classified - like a rocket or jet engine development program.

 

[Janne]

Sisyfos was a greek guy, that "trangressed". His punishment was to push a boulder up a steep hill while serving time in Hades. If he managed to reach the summit, he would return to the living. He never did, as he each time slipped just before the summit, and the boulder rolled down the hill.

Your explanation about why it may be needed in Artillery - I do not know. By timing the shot the only thing you achieve is the average speed of the projectile. The rest is done by observers. You can not follow the projectile, so no need for the binoculars. At distance, it is not possible to see theimpact with any accurancy. That is the reason for airborne or stationary observers.
But the rocket and jet engine bit - sounds more likely.
As all the documents were "liberated" by both the US and the Soviets (not sure if UK?) I am sure the truth is hidden somewhere.

It does not matter what it was used for. It is a rare timepiece worthy our attention!

 

[Lume]

Have you seen this link, they go into some detail abut this watch:
http://glashutte.watchprosite.com/show-forumpost/fi-7/pi-3106111/ti-513746/s--8/

"These watches seem to have been used together with a device called a mirror sextant for tracking the flight paths of the V-missiles during testing. Obviously exact time, that could only be read though a mirror while using the device, was necessary to read this mirror sextant."

There's also a picture of another remake of this watch in that thread.

"Messbatterie" is an obvious choice for the name of the project (which translates to "test artillery" or "measuring battery"). Anyway, V-rockets, classified tests, misterious reversed numbers - that's all very interesting, it would be nice if the name reflected this somehow.

 

[Uwe W.]

Have you seen this link, they go into some detail abut this watch:"These watches seem to have been used together with a device called a mirror sextant for tracking the flight paths of the V-missiles during testing. Obviously exact time, that could only be read though a mirror while using the device, was necessary to read this mirror sextant."

Thanks for posting that link Lume.

Well, if you ever wanted proof that you shouldn't believe everything that you read on the web, you have it. That post was laden with errors. Sextants are used for navigation - primarily to calculate your latitude - but it can also be used to find your position on a map by shooting two landmarks. I own a sextant and would love if the author of that post would explain to me how I can use my navigation instrument to "track the flight path" of a rocket. I'm equally impressed that he has also located evidence that definitively connects the M-B with the rocket program.

 

[Uwe W.]

Your explanation about why it may be needed in Artillery - I do not know. By timing the shot the only thing you achieve is the average speed of the projectile. The rest is done by observers. You can not follow the projectile, so no need for the binoculars. At distance, it is not possible to see theimpact with any accurancy. That is the reason for airborne or stationary observers.

I've been on artillery ranges and could most certainly see the impact with binoculars - and rangefinders determine the distance of the impact. So determining the average speed of a projectile is important, especially if you're tracking a non-stationary target. In a defensive role a timer or M-B type watch can also be used for sound ranging. We are of course talking about the state of technology in the late '30s.

Regardless, as you stated it is a unique design and I'm quite stoked about this project. It's going to be a very cool watch. :-!

 

[Manolete]

"Messbatterie" is an obvious choice for the name of the project (which translates to "test artillery" or "measuring battery"). Anyway, V-rockets, classified tests, misterious reversed numbers - that's all very interesting, it would be nice if the name reflected this somehow.

+1 I like the idea of Messbatterie for the watch.

 

[Lume]

Thanks for posting that link Lume.

Well, if you ever wanted proof that you shouldn't believe everything that you read on the web, you have it. That post was laden with errors. Sextants are used for navigation - primarily to calculate your latitude - but it can also be used to find your position on a map by shooting two landmarks. I own a sextant and would love if the author of that post would explain to me how I can use my navigation instrument to "track the flight path" of a rocket. I'm equally impressed that he has also located evidence that definitively connects the M-B with the rocket program.

And here I was imagining them chasing V-1 missiles with these watches on board an airplane

Perhaps if we contact the makers they will tell us what they know?

BTW Here's the other watch, they named it the Aristo Sextant:

Sextant Titan
Aristo - Pilotwatches from germany

 

[Janne]

That one is a nice try.

N.B. : TRY !! :-d
The Dial is good, but the rest - bah!

 

[Uwe W.]

Perhaps if we contact the makers they will tell us what they know?
BTW Here's the other watch, they named it the Aristo Sextant

I doubt if they know anymore than what we've dug up or Dr. Knirim has published in his book and online. If anything I suspect that marketing a "sextant" watch is more politically friendly than promoting the fact they were commissioned by the W-SS.

Aristo isn't the only manufacturer of these. I bought this one years ago; then as now, I was intrigued by the dial and the 'story' that it had something to do with Werner von Braun.

 

[Uwe W.]

The Discussion so far...

So it looks like the consensus so far is to use the existing case finish. And most seem indifferent to whether or not the FL engraving appears on the side of the case.

In terms of voting for these two items, unless someone states that they would like another finish, I won't include it on the ballot. There will be a 'yes' or 'no' option for the FL engraving.

It also seems like most like the idea of calling this watch the "Messbatterie". Or should it be the "Messbatterie B-Uhr"? Or "Messbatterie Special Edition"? "Messbatterie Limited Edition?" We could also include a name in the vote, but other than a guy pushing a rock up the hill, there hasn't been any other suggestions for a name - and no one liked my "Big Bertha" idea... go figure!

With respect to the case back, the idea of having a B-Uhr type id chart engraved on the back is very popular. If we're going to do this then we'll still need to decide on a couple of items for it:

• a designation for the modified 2824.2 movement
• where to put each watch's LE number

We should also discuss what other information we might like to have engraved on the case back. Some of the specs of the watch as appears on some other Laco watches? Or maybe a more detailed description of it being a special WUS project?

Things are moving along quite nicely, but it would be good to narrow down the engraving options to three or four choices to make voting less complicated.

 

[lukeaar]

Re: The Discussion so far...

Messbatterie Sonderausgabe

I agree the FL side engraving should go to a yes no vote.

Updated proposition for caseback engraving:
B-Uhr chart info:
Bauart (ETA something)
Gerat-nr (127-560A)
Werk-Nr. (2824.2 something)
Anforderz. (FL23883)
Hersteller: (LACO)

then, cursive (hand engraved?) script 'Nr. X von 50' below the chart

Then, we need somewhere to put the name. I propose following the writing on Uwe's original draft, but replacing like this:
---2011 Laco etc. replaced by "Messbatterie Sonderausgabe"
---Beobachtun.... replaced by simply "Beobachtungsuhr" (no need for the fur Messbatterie if we're calling the watch messbatterie....)

 

[lukeaar]

Re: The Discussion so far...

Another quick thought:

In order to include the year, can we add a row to the chart that is Jahr: 2011? Or is this too removed from convention?

 

[Manera]

Case/Back - [Very] Rough Model

Here's a quick and dirty Sketchup Model - it's more for fun than anything as it's difficult to see all the elements clearly without a cleaner model and properly rendered textures. At the very least, this should generate a little excitement for the final product (!). I'll have some time off in a few weeks and could then work on a better model for us to play with.

But, to continue the case/back discussion, I've used the combined text suggestions from Uwe and lukeaar in this sample. I think it's headed in the right direction and am in favor of the watch being titled the 'Messbatterie'.