[Uwe W.]

It's time to discuss the CASE that we're going to use for the Special Edition Project. The project THEME voted highest by the majority of participants was the Artillery watch, so our case should best reflect the spirit of that theme.

Please feel free to discuss the use of the following Laco cases and which one you feel would be best suited to the Artillery theme.

Option 1: Laco 35 mm 1969 case (only available as is - no modifications to case available - can only be used with the Durowe movement)

Option 2: Laco 42 mm B-Uhr case (with or without FL engraving - different finishes available - suitable for either auto or handwinding)

Option 3: Laco 45 mm B-Uhr case (with or without FL engraving - different finishes available - can only be used with handwinding movements)

Option 4: Laco 42 mm Navy case (different finishes available)

Option 5: Laco 46 mm Squad Black case (only available as is - no modifications to case available)

 

[Uwe W.]

how big is the Laco 1969? Cheers

A very good question and clearly something I overlooked. I believe it's 35 mm; I'll update my original post with the info.

I think for the artillery design, the 45mm b-uhr case will be the goer. Need as big a case as possible, I think, but I don't think the squad case suits the face design.

I fully agree. The only problem is that the 45 mm case has the FL engraving and the original Artillery watch, not being a Luftwaffe issued timepiece, wouldn't have had such a marking.

 

[Uwe W.]

The 1969 case, which I think would be useful for a civilian or plain military-style model, is only available in the finish shown. By the time Laco receives their B-Uhr cases the engraving has already been completed, which is why there's a caveat about the FL marking. However, Laco did say they would look into the possibility of a different finishing of the project watch; I would assume that if that's a possibility then maybe we could get a case without the FL engraving. I will certainly ask. I agree a case in a different finish would make it stand out from the rest of the collection.

As for the size, I'd like to see as big a dial as possible because there's a lot of information on it, not to mention it would nice to see a crisply divided sub-second indicies. The version I have from Aeromatic uses a small case (either 40 or 42 mm). I think Aristo has made two versions, a 37 mm and a 44 mm. Of interest, Aristo is also a Pforzheim-based company like Laco. A larger case size would really make this version stand out from anything previously attempted.

Although we'll have a thread dedicated to engraving, I noticed that the back of one of the Aristo models had an FL engraving, which seems weird to me. I'm going to have to look into that further as my FL chart is on another computer.

 

[Uwe W.]

On the pic, what kind of surface does it seem to have? Looks brushed on my screen.

Knirim's book shows three examples of the Artillery dial. I'm still confounded by the FL marking, however, it appears that these watches were ordered to be built to the specifications laid out by the Luftwaffe for navigation instruments (Beobachtungsuhren), which would explain the FL marking. Knirim speculates that they were used as part of the V-Rocket program at Peenemünde, which is why Werner von Braun's name is often associated with this dial (the SS were in charge of the operation of the rocket program).

Of the three examples shown, one has a silver case and the other two nickel-coated brass. An attached invoice from A. Lange & Söhne for a 1943 production run of 22 watches details their construction:

"SS-Beobachtungsuhren, Werk Kal. 48 mm, Gehäuse als Fliegerarmbanduhr gearbeitet, aus Messing hergestellt und grau mattiert, mit Lederriemen, genäht und doppelt genietet, Uhr mit heraussiebarer Krone un Anhaltsvorrichtung, Werk durch Lederring in der Gehäuseführung gasdicht abgeschlossen, mit Spezialzifferblatt vie von der WaffenßSS vorgeschrieben, anstelle der Zahlen III und IV verlängerte Teilungsgestriche 15 und 45, mit Leuchtziffern und zeigern, Sekunde springend, Sekunderzeiger am rückwärtigen Ende mit leuchtenem Strich versehen."

Translated:

"SS Observation watches, movement caliber 48 mm, case built as an aviator's wrist watch, made of brass with a matte grey finish, with leather strap - stitched and double riveted, watch with pullable crown and hacking device, movement gas sealed by a leather ring in the housing, special dial as specified by the Waffen SS, instead of the numbers III and IV and extended partition using 15 and 45, with luminous numerals and hands, second jump?, second hand with luminous bar at its back."

What I do like is that we will have a choice of at least three different hand configurations and two dial variations when it comes down to that part of the project. The prototype sketch shows a set of oversized hands and the photographs of the actual watches show that at least three different types of hands were used with this dial.

 

[Uwe W.]

Back to cases

I just heard from Laco that the 45 mm can be ordered without engraving if so desired and that other finishes would also be possible. I'd assume that the same would hold true for the 42 mm case. I've updated the first post in this thread to reflect this new information.

Depending on which case we select, should we look at using a different finish? The original 65 mm cases were described as being matte gray; although I love the look of the Laco B-Uhr case, I think it would be intriguing to use a different finish to make this watch stand out from the rest of Laco's collection.

Looking over the images of the 65 mm cases, they look to be quite smooth. A gray PVD would be interesting, but personally I wouldn't want to go down that road. Perhaps a different kind of bead blast that would leave a smoother finish and still give it a gray appearance? A titanium case would certainly give it an interesting look, but unfortunately that would be a cost prohibitive option - even if it were available, which it isn't.

 

[Uwe W.]

I like seeing the FL engraving against the smooth, silvery finish of that first-run/prototype watch (understanding that the effect is likely the fruit of age).

The silver case was not a prototype but a special model produced in 1942.

Is a Crown discussion pending?

I suppose it could be, but considering we're trying to make this a more affordable project, I don't think adding something like a new crown will help matters.

any chance of seeing the the three Artillery dial versions together (or perhaps that's best left for the Dial-thread...)?

I'm posting the images of all three for the purpose of discussing the CASE. Please, let's not go off on a tangent by taking on the dial or hands and this point. There will be threads for that once we've voted on the case.

 

[Uwe W.]

All 3 watches have glossy cases. In the specks, it is stated that the case should be matte'd Brass. (in the case on the Laco B-uhr, the Brass cases were Matte Nickel plated).

Those pics, the prototype cases can not be made of polished brass. Wrong colour

Maybe I should have uploaded higher resolution photos, but only the silver case is "glossy". The other two are clearly a matte gray, however, they do have a polished appearance in high wear areas such as the case back. In fact, in one of those you can clearly see the brass beginning to show through the worn nickel. Did you read my translation of the description of a production model in this post? I'm not sure how much of the case, if any, appeared in the photos the original watches were used for, but I'm sure you wouldn't want a highly reflective, shiny case in front of a camera lens.

And the watches in the photos are NOT prototypes. I'm not sure why everyone keeps saying that they are. The initial design for the Beobachtungsuhr für Messbatterie (Observation watch for test battery) was being worked on toward the end of 1940. The silver cased model was a delivered in May 1942. The model with the stubby hour hand has the second generation dial, so it was most likely made after the silver cased model. The third watch was delivered in October 1943.

Although not identical, the lugs on the original cases are very similar to those on Laco's B-Uhr, which is a very good starting point. Here's a better shot of the lugs on an original. Please note that not all of the cases had the FL engraving!

Photo: uhren-muser.de

 

[Uwe W.]

Personally I'd like to match our watch as closely to the build description of the original as possible. Having said that, arranging for a different finish would only add to the project's cost.

It may be hard to tell on your computer monitor, but when I look at the images in Knirim's book the finish looks like matte gray to me, especially in the lug area. I disagree with your assessment that these M-B B-Uhren would have been handled less than a Luftwaffe B-Uhr. Some would have been around for as a long as many of Luftwaffe B-Uhren - and since there were fewer of the M-Bs in circulation - they might have seen more use. Then there's the question of how much they've been handled in the past 65 years. Take a look at that case in my previous post - there's brass showing almost everywhere. Think about how much handling that particular watch has received over the years for so much of its finish to have been worn away. No wonder it appears polished!

I would be opposed to a polished version. The silver cases were exceptions to the rule and only manufactured that way because of who they were presented to. Just like the Luftwaffe B-Uhr, the M-B B-Uhr was a tool watch and should look the part. To bling it out with some pimp-daddy chrome and silver sparkle is just wrong...:-d

 

[Uwe W.]

Just for reference, here's one of the Russian-made ones off eBay

You mean a reference for what not to do? It looks horrid. They really can churn out the junk in Russia and the Ukraine; if nothing else they know how to keep the dial manufacturers busy with their fraudulent creations. I say fraudulent because they typically try to pawn this stuff off as being original.

 

[Uwe W.]

Do you not trust our Ukrainian friends, brother Uwe?

What can I say? Maybe I just feel bad for all those people that get ripped-off by them on eBay.

It seems like a lot of us are liking the 45 mm B-Uhr case. I'm surprised there haven't been more arguments for the 42 mm from small watch fans. However, I think the majority of watch wearers can pull of a 45 mm. Personally, I'd love to use the 55 mm B-Uhr case, but that would maybe limit the interest... hmmmm..... maybe only 50 people would be interested then! ;-)

 

[Uwe W.]

More Case Information

Laco has just contacted me regarding a few points about the cases that should be brought to everyone's attention (I'll also update the first post in this thread with the info):

• The 1969 case can only be used with the Durowe movement
• The 45 mm case can only be used with a handwinding movement (it's too thin to house an automatic)
• The 42 mm case can be used with both automatic and handwinding

We will probably conduct the voting on the CASE next week (May 16). Hopefully we will know by then if it will be possible to use a different movement. Laco have requested that we give them a healthy lead time for which case we would like to use to make sure there aren't long delays in waiting for them later during production.

 

[Uwe W.]

Re: More Case Information

Laco did not mention if we could opt out from the laser engraving on the case?

Yes, they did. I thought I had already posted that in this thread? Anyway, we can get the 45 mm case without the FL engraving if we so desire. The 42 mm is already available without because it's used for the Navy model.

 

[Uwe W.]

Re: More Case Information

In choosing between the 1969/42mm/45mm/other cases, are we also inherently selecting a see-through vs. solid caseback? Once the unit Case has been decided, will there be a subsequent conversation/vote on finishing details (i.e., FL engraving, Matte/Brush/Polish, etc.)? Thanks!

There will be a separate thread to deal with the subject of engraving and the type of case back (assuming there is a choice of case back available). The 1969 case is only available with a display back but the engraving can be changed. The 42 mm B-Uhr case I believe is available with both backs and custom engraving. I would suspect that the 45 mm is only available with a solid case back and custom engraving.

As for the case finish, we'll need to include that and the FL engraving in this discussion and vote.

 

[Uwe W.]

45mm is just big enough for this dial IMO. I think this is the obvious middle ground here, although if 55mm were an option it would prob get my vote! I like the matte or brushed finish as well as most here, and would happily pick the lowest cost version in this aspect of the design. It looks like we haven't heard anything from Laco on the movement options yet, but if we can use a manual-wind ETA would most others be interested in a transparent case-back? Is this an option with the 45mm B-uhr case?

Agree with your comments, especially about the 55 mm case. It would be my first choice too, however, we know its size would alienate too many people here. Laco have responed about the ETA movement: visit the first post in the MOVEMENT thread for more details. I don't think that a display back will be an option for the 45 mm - but is this something that anyone would really want? A display back is truly an affront to the tool nature of the observation watch theme.