[Uwe W.]

Recent developments have changed the scope of this project. We now have four options with respect to the movement to be used for the Laco Special Edition watch. This thread is solely for the discussion of these four movements. Voting on these options will commence on Monday May 16.

Option 1: Durowe INT 7425-4 (base project price: 1,498 €)

The NOS movement will receive receive a full servicing by Laco, that is a full teardown, cleaning, reassembly, regulating and cleaning as part of the base price for the project watch. Here are a couple of photos of the base movement from Laco:

Option 2: Durowe INT 7425-4 Decorated (base project price higher - more than 1,498 €)

Some have asked about customizing the movement further by having it decorated. Laco has said this option is possible, at additional cost. Here are a couple of photos of a movement that Laco have decorated as an example:

Option 3: ETA 2824.2 - Automatic (base project price: between 898 € and 998 €)

Option 4: ETA 2824.2 - Modified to handwinding (base project price: between 898 € and 998 €)

 

[Janne]

Personally, I am a great advocate of the KISS principle.

Decoration of a movement in a Mil style watch - not necessary.

 

[vipereaper30]

So....

When can we start the discussion on using a different movement so we can bring the price of this thing down to the level of reality?

I second Janne's comment on the movement decoration, not a necessity. Particularly if there isn't a transparent case-back.

 

[MHe225]

So....

When can we start the discussion on using a different movement so we can bring the price of this thing down to the level of reality?

I second Janne's comment on the movement decoration, not a necessity. Particularly if there isn't a transparent case-back.

That's a suggestion I have made twice before in the General Discussion Thread and it was pointed out that alternative movements are not an option. Also, the €1,500 pricing level is for the watch with this old*, non-decorated Durowe movement. Agree with you all that decorating is pointless when it's hidden by a solid case-back.

RonB

* when does old roll over to vintage?

 

[Janne]

Different movement NOT an option?

In my world, the customer decides what is an option. I do not like that Laco is forcing us to accept an old movement they dug up from somewhere in the basement.

With an ETA, we have the option not only to affect the cost by chosing between the different grades, but this way choosing the accurancy too.

 

[Uwe W.]

Guys, please relax. There's a reason that this project was spec'd the way it was - so please don't blame Laco for forcing anything when you don't have all the facts. The impetus to use a vintage movement came from a meeting between Laco and WUS personnel. The idea was a good one, but clearly the costs involved weren't determined at the time.

Finding a way to rekindle enthusiasm for this project by bringing down its cost is something I've been working on the moment the base price was announced. However, until something changes there's little point in going off on tangents; let's continue to work with the original specs and if something happens that will change the course of the project I'll be sure to announce it immediately.

 

[brainless]

Guys, please relax. There's a reason that this project was spec'd the way it was - so please don't blame Laco for forcing anything when you don't have all the facts. The impetus to use a vintage movement came from a meeting between Laco and WUS personnel. The idea was a good one, but clearly the costs involved weren't determined at the time.

Finding a way to rekindle enthusiasm for this project by bringing down its cost is something I've been working on the moment the base price was announced. However, until something changes there's little point in going off on tangents; let's continue to work with the original specs and if something happens that will change the course of the project I'll be sure to announce it immediately.

Hi Uwe,

I'm afraid you don't have to bring down costs but profit:
Serial case, serial glass, serial crown, serial case back, serial old/vintage movement plus customized dial with serial hands.
The market price here in Germany for one NOS Durowe 7425/7525 is about 30,- to 50,- €; full service, made by a skillful and experienced watchmaker needs 30 to 60 minutes worktime.
So in total the price for a serviced NOS Durowe 7425/7525 is not more than 100,- € maximum - generously calculated ( servicing a batch of 50 pcs. diminishes the cost even more ).
What are the costs of a modern ETA movement?

People at LACO's are free to calculate their watches as they want - only I can't see how 1498,- € for the base variant could be justified by costs plus usual margin.......

Just my zwei cent,

Volker ;-)

 

[StufflerMike]

Sorry to say Jan, when we met with LACO in the "Hundskugel" in Munich to discuss another LE it was me (a customer) and some other guys (customers) insisting on a NOS movement. The run of the LE should be limited by the availability of the movements so Laco flicked through their files and stock to a) have a small limited edition (50 pieces) but b) to ensure having parts in stock for after sales service. So please do not blame LACO; in November 2010 LACO did what we asked them for. If there (now) is a wish for a contemporary movement it is a new situation but when planning the LE the use of a current movement was not even discussed.

Inside:

Outside:

 

[Janne]

It was a super idea, it still is.

But I feel Laco is overdoing the profit margin here. The current proposed cost will sink the whole project.

As Volker mentioned, the value (unserviced) is around 30 Euro

But, the cost for Laco is Zero Euro ( been in a box for 35 years or so) so it is only the expense of the total service that goes into the equation. If they give us the movement for free, and only charge for the service, they make a small profit there as it is.

It looks like a very nice Restaurant/bierstube.
I hope you had a really nice evening!

 

[JohnF]

Hi -

Getting one movement is easy.

Seriously: there is a world of difference between getting a single movement, even NOS, and having 50 for a LE watch. The cost is not zero: someone, sometime, paid for those movements, and having the patience to hold on to them for so long is worth quite a bit. If Laco were to sell the 50 movements as a lot, they'd get quite a bit more for them than your single movement could generate: this is not something that is simply scaleable. I've worked on getting vintage movements for various projects: having that many movements available for a LE watch is a make-or-break proposition, not something to be dismissed lightly!

While any (good) watchmaker can service such a movement, making an original watch around it is another story entirely, and to be honest, the price is not out of the ordinary. I know of a watchmaker who recases AS movements, updating them, and sells as many as he can make for prices more than what Laco is asking, without taking into account precious metal prices. There is a watchmaker on the West Coast who has 100 NOS Hamilton 770 movements: he is sitting on a goldmine, even though he got it as part of closing down a watch shop as a freebie. Never confuse cost with the value of something!

JohnF

 

[Janne]

With all respect, I am not confusing cost with value.
The movements did not cost Laco of today anything. The 1970's owner paid.
The value? Not the difference of cost between the WUS LE and this SP. Because the difference is simply huge.

Let us not forget that this movement is a standard 17J movement, fitted to lots of German lower cost watches. It is not chronometer grade, is 100% undecorated, a simple, average quality workhorse.
To compare it to the Hamilton 770 is like comparing a RR V8 to a VW boxer 4.

The value for me is that it is NOS, and that the movement is Made in Germany.

Edit:
It seems, that I paid 550 Euro for the WUS LE, incl modified ETA movement. That is with the black, custom hands.

So,
1498 - 550 = ?

 

[Piccolo8]

Although I am already stepped out from this project, as the vote ended up with W-SS dial(I still doubt LACO will produce a watch with this dial, by the way), I would like to point out one fact regarding the value and pricing of the NOS Durowe Movement.

LACO is still offering non decorated but fully serviced Durowe 7423(day date, handwinding BPH 21600=6 beats/Sec) powered limited edition of 195 watches through Deutsche Post Philately Shop for the decent price of 348EUR( I do not know how many are still available but surely they are listed on the online shop).|>

Even with a better quality case with Sapphire crystal, I can not understand the price currently offered by LACO. :roll:

 

[Janne]

I typed in 50 units in the order, and it got accepted. 195 units were not accepted.

 

[Uwe W.]

I am already stepped out from this project, as the vote ended up with W-SS dial(I still doubt LACO will produce a watch with this dial, by the way)

Your rationale for boycotting a watch design because of who used it is beyond my comprehension. I'm assuming that you must have a very long list of brand-name products that you refuse to buy. For example, you had better not drive a Porsche or a VW, buy any product made from Krupp steel, or even consider wearing a Hugo Boss suit. Certainly you would never own a Stowa, Wempe, A. Lange & Soehne or IWC watch either. And that's just the tip of a massive iceberg. Since the moral highground should be free of any prejudice, you should also have an equally long list of American, British, French and Russian manufacturers as well.

The majority of people here voted for the Artillery theme. Just like the German watch manufacturers that have recently used this dial as the basis of one of their watches, most here are able to differentiate between the realities of wartime production and the condoning of immoral acts. It is the man who commits an act of barbarism, not the watch that he is wearing, and certainly not the manufacturer that made it for him.

LACO is still offering non decorated but fully serviced Durowe 7423(day date, handwinding BPH 21600=6 beats/Sec) powered limited edition of 195 watches through Deutsche Post Philately Shop for the decent price of 348EUR( I do not know how many are still available but surely they are listed on the online shop.

I'm aware of the watch but haven't seen any available in a while. Do you have a link that shows it is still available for sale? Last time I looked at the Deutsche Post shop I didn't see any Laco watches available for sale. Perhaps I was looking in the wrong spot.

 

[Bhanu Chopra]

Since I work for Deutsche Post I can help

Deutsche Post - Philatelie Privatkunden | Shop - Edition 1972 mit Datum, Automatik

 

[city-dweller]

by the way, there is also a handwound version (Durowe 7423) available at the same price:
Deutsche Post - Philatelie Privatkunden | Shop - Edition 1972 Day-Date, Handaufzug

would a handwound movement better correspond to the watch type we are discussing?

 

[Piccolo8]

Your rationale for boycotting a watch design because of who used it is beyond my comprehension. I'm assuming that you must have a very long list of brand-name products that you refuse to buy. For example, you had better not drive a Porsche or a VW, buy any product made from Krupp steel, or even consider wearing a Hugo Boss suit. Certainly you would never own a Stowa, Wempe, A. Lange & Soehne or IWC watch either. And that's just the tip of a massive iceberg. Since the moral highground should be free of any prejudice, you should also have an equally long list of American, British, French and Russian manufacturers as well.

The majority of people here voted for the Artillery theme. Just like the German watch manufacturers that have recently used this dial as the basis of one of their watches, most here are able to differentiate between the realities of wartime production and the condoning of immoral acts. It is the man who commits an act of barbarism, not the watch that he is wearing, and certainly not the manufacturer that made it for him.
.

Uwe,

I didn't have an intention to bring up the topic again but you did....
You are totally misunderstanding the aspect. Please read once again some related posts by Volker and others if you wish to understand it correctly.

I know one good example to illustrate.

There used be a high grade car brand name called HORCH in Germany. HORCH eventually became a part of Auto Union (HORCH, AUDI, WANDERER, DKW).

During the WWII, Auto Union was a major supplier of automobiles to the German armed forces.

After the war, Auto Union was newly founded in West Germany and then purchased by Volkswagen Group. Volkswagen reintroduced the old brand name "AUDI" for their upper class product line than Volkswagen, although historically "HORCH" was considered superior than "AUDI" among old Auto Union car brands.

They didn't reintroduced the brand name "HORCH", most likely due to the fact that so many people in Germany associate the name with NS history.

All the best to your LACO project,

 

[Uwe W.]

Since I work for Deutsche Post I can help

That IS very handy. Thanks Mr. B!

would a handwound movement better correspond to the watch type we are discussing?

Absolutely. In that respect the proposed Durowe is a handwound version. Should the scope of the project change and we end up using an ETA, I'd assume most would be in favour of a handwind variant?

 

[Janne]

Yes.
Automatic is for spineless wimps.

 

[city-dweller]

I'm happy the handwound version is getting a strong support