[Uwe W.]

This thread is ONLY for the discussion and voting of the Special Project's theme and the name of the watch (if it is decided that a name will be used).

 

[Uwe W.]

Probably the best place to start this project will be deciding a theme for the watch. Let's not get into specifics yet; there will be plenty of opportunity for that later.

What TYPE of watch should this Special Edition be? A B-Uhr? A Navy? Should it be something modern or historic? Or an interpretation of something historic? What about something completely different from Laco's history like an updated version of the Laco Sport?

Keep in mind that we have to work with an existing case from one of those two collections. Once we've nailed down the theme it will make it easier to discuss specific design elements of the watch.

 

[Uwe W.]

Good, well thought out points Rev; thanks. I agree that there are many intriguing options. I hadn't tought about either the Zeppelin or helicopter direction, but it does sound interesting. However, I think you'll find that many will clamour toward a B-Uhr theme; it does appear to be what is most popular here. But that's why we need to discuss this first.

I also like LH2's suggestion about exploring the Navy line. It was my first thought when this project started. A historically accurate B-Uhr has been worked on before, but not a Navy timepiece.

One other item worth considering is the Durowe movement that will be used. Was it originally used in other Laco watches? If so, why not a re-issue of those designs?

 

[Uwe W.]

Re: 2011 Laco Special Edition Project - GENERAL DISCUSSION

The problem is that this is a 50 unit run and and the project leader stated that we have to make do with the existing cases.
Nothing fancy, maybe some detailing here and there. As much as we like to let our creative juices fly... we just can't.

I wouldn't call designing a dial and hands from scratch "minor detailing"! There is plenty of room to make this a very unique watch.

Basically, it is only the dial we will design.
Thank God for that, as it would take forever designing every part of the watch.

Actually, we also have to design the hands because none of the existing hands from the Laco collection will fit the Durowe movement. I think both of you might be underestimating the possibilities of custom engraving of the case and case back.

However, I do agree that it's a good thing that we're not designing the entire watch; what Rev Fred didn't mention about the Proteus project is that it took a year and a half from the very first discussions to the watches being shipped. That was a very, very long time and a lot of very difficult work. The scope of this project in my mind combines enough creative latitude with a friendlier project duration.

 

[Uwe W.]

The movement, is it a center second, or does it have a seconds sub dial?

I'm waiting on photos and a few more specs of the movement from Laco. But, you're absolutly right that the location of the second hand can have a very important bearing on the choice of theme.

Here are a few things that I do know about the Durowe 7425 base movement: it's handwinding with a sweep second hand and a quickset date wheel. It's size is 11.5''' (25.6 mm) and has a 4.15 mm height. It uses 17 jewels, has a decent frequency of 21,600 A/h and a 40 hour power reserve.

 

[Uwe W.]

Re: 2011 Laco Special Edition Project - GENERAL DISCUSSION

The case, bezel and caseback, can they be had polished?

I will find out.

I feel that the B-uhr theme has been overdone, be it A-dial or B-dial. The only B-uhr dial I would contemplate, is the W-SS special.
Submarine units had a different dial too.

I fully agree. However, I've always been excited by the earlier B-Uhr variants that have rarely been reproduced. The W-SS artillery B-Uhr has always intrigued me; the original was very, very rare. It was also 65 mm in size! I have a reproduction of it by Aeromatic 1912 (cheap Chinese watch) and I know Aristo make a version too. However, neither are technically brilliant, and we certainly could do a much better version here - especially with a Laco 45 mm case.

the best we can do is dig up an old dial design and try to stay as close to the original as possible. And to move away frm the Laco history and heritage would be an insult to the brand... this is purely my humble opinion. We must remember Laco's roots and not stray too far.

Absolutely! And well said.

Once we've decided on a theme it will narrow things down considerably - but we should draw on a model from Laco's history.

 

[Uwe W.]

Thanks for the Opportunity Uwe. |> i'm in for something SPECIAL. so long the Case Diameter is 46 or 47mm. ;-)

Fantastic to see you here Tony!

We have to use an existing Laco case to keep costs to a realistic level. This means that we'll need to use either a 42 or 45 mm size (unless of course there's a bizarre demand for a 36 or 55 mm version). There will be a thread set up for the case once we've established a theme (and possible a name for our project watch), so we can always debate which case in more detail later on.

 

[Uwe W.]

i like that Dial very Much. :-! it's Different and we don't see it too often... the Secs i'd like to see:

Hand Wind Decorated Movement. (maybe a Valgrange A07.111).
see through back
46 or 47mm Case Diameter. PLEASE.!!
Brushed or Bead Blasted Case.

Tony - read the OVERVIEW thread at the top of this forum. The movement has already been decided and the case, as I stated in my previous post, has to be a current Laco case.

 

[Uwe W.]

Since the question of the case size seems to crop up most of the time.
What say we start on the voting on the case size?

We should come up with a theme first as it might dictate the case size. For example, a larger case for a B-Uhr would be more appropriate, just like a smaller case for a Navy would be more suiting.

Perhaps a series of smaller steps to decide on a theme?

1. Military or Civilian design?
2. If Military, should it be based on an airforce or navy design?
3. If Civilian, which era? Dressy or sport?

 

[Uwe W.]

BTW, I forgot one thing: Not sure if I am not breaching the copyright of Knirim me copying his pictures?

The photos from his works are not only all over the internet, but this forum as well. I would certainly like to get his permission IF we end up replicating a historical watch and using one of his photos as a reference.

Maybe we could have 51 watches made. No 51/51 given for free to Mr Knirim as a Thank You, and we all split the cost?

You're being awfully generous with everyone's money Janne! ;-) Let's stick with 50 watches and keep the costs down. I could understand the gesture if it was a watch of his design that we were using; it seems a little extreme for a photo of someone else's watch though.

 

[Uwe W.]

WOAH! Cool it! This is a thread about the general theme of the watch. There are steps involved in these projects, the first being to choose a general theme, and from there you choose the appropriate dial, hands, name, engraving etc. You will get the chance to debate the dial ad nauseam in the coming weeks, as well as all the other aspects, in separate threads.

Exactly! These projects are like herding cats with everyone running off in different directions with long lists of ideas. The purpose of this thread is to establish a theme for the watch - nothing more (other than possibly a name for the project). Let's try to focus on that. As Rev Fred said - there will be plenty of opportunity to discuss all the different design elements later on. We're not trying to design an entire watch in one thread, just to give this project a direction to move in.

Erm... did I come out sounding rough? Sorry if I did... What I meant was if there is any suggestions, now is the best time to be heard. Any pictures or references would be ideal.

Nothing wrong with what you said! I believe Rev Fred just didn't want everyone to get the wrong idea that this was the time to discuss dial designs. However, you are absolutely correct, now is the time to discuss the theme if you have an opinion on it - and yes - pictures will really help to support your point.

I've seen a lot of people sign up in the REGISTRATION thread saying that they are only interested if it's a 'pilot' watch project. Why is it that I haven't seen any of them commenting here on why they feel that way - or how a pilot watch would be suitable for a special project such as this. I would have to assume that all they're interested is a B-Uhr identical to those already being made except with the vintage Durowe movement. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want. I have an Archimede that is the same as one of their production watches but was a special edition only because it uses a vintage Junghans movement. It is done.

I think we can stop discussing the W-SS label on the artillery B-Uhr. Of course we wouldn't ask Laco to print such a symbol on the dial. Our concern here is watches and their design, not politics.

 

[Uwe W.]

While Laco is most associated with historical Pilot watches, the typical B-hur hommages have been widely done. I think doing something different would be better for such a limited run. I do like the dial below, finding it keeps it in the genre, but different than an A or B dial.

Good point and I agree.

The movement is also small (26mm), so I think a smaller case would be more in keeping with the design. From an earlier post, it sounds like the two smallest case sizes would be 38mm and 42mm.

Actually it would be a 36 mm, not 38 mm, but the point is still a good one. We will discuss the case later in another thread, but the movement size should be a consideration for the theme too.

So far I have yet to read anyone support the idea of using one of Laco's civilian watches as a theme. I would have thought someone would have been interested in something along the lines of a Laco Sport. Does this mean we could at least narrow the theme selection down to it being a military inspired watch project?

We'll let this thread run for at least another week to give other people an opportunity to join in, and then we'll vote on the theme. So please voice any ideas you might have on this subject now so that we can incorporate them into the vote.

 

[Uwe W.]

We need to focus: THEME IDEAS

Janne, there will be a special thread just to discuss and decide on a case. There will be a discussion thread just for the dial. There will be a discussion thread just for the hands.

For now I believe our energy would be better spent deciding a theme for this project. I understand that everyone is excited - that's great - but we really need to focus on the step by step process. Once a theme has been decided it will be much, much easier to work on the rest of the design elements.

I think most agree that this project watch should reflect Laco's heritage. However, should we pursuing a military or civilian design? It seems like most are only interested in military models. Alright, but then should it be an air or sea theme? Do we pursue a naval design that incorporates the elements of a ship's chronometer or a deck watch? Do we stick to the B-Uhr and create a variation of that theme or use an older B-Uhr design as a template? Or maybe we should look toward the design of Bord Uhren (aircraft clocks) or the timepieces worn by flight crew?

I will try to post photos of all of the above themes tonight (EST) to illustrate what I'm talking about.

 

[Uwe W.]

Re: We need to focus: THEME IDEAS

Laco started -25, did only civilian watches untill the B-uhren (1939?). They were the only milpil designs they did untill that fateful night in -45.

Laco also produced a wonderful naval version of the B-Uhr - in 1943 I believe. A faithful reproduction of this model is available in the Laco Shop as a very special edition of 20 samples (if I had the funds I would buy one tomorrow). As much as I would really love to do a proper KM wristwatch version of this B-Uhr, it would require a sub-second dial. I'm waiting on confirmation from Laco, but I believe the Durowe being used for this project has a central second hand. This alone makes doing any type of marine/navy/KM project difficult as the vast majority of those timepieces used sub-second dials. I have however found this intriguing design of a Lange KM B-Uhr that could be used for consideration.

Laco KM B-Uhr ('43-'44?)

A. Lange & Söhne KM B-Uhr (photo Knirim)

 

[Uwe W.]

Re: 2011 Laco Special Edition Project - GENERAL DISCUSSION

We need to use an existing case (Uwe, can you get perhaps a serious of photographs that would give us the case options?)

The implication was any existing case, however, I have asked for a clarification on this in the form of either a list or photos. I will post all information as I receive it.

But please: NO full dial lume: at night this is far too garish and distracting.

I'm of the opposite opinion on this subject. Of course we can get into that during the dial planning, but a lume dial would be historically correct.

Perhaps a compromise could be a pilot of sorts, which has a unique theme, and some special design elements to echo that theme.

I actually quite like the idea of a theme specific to either a person, ship, plane or event. Laco did have two series of Squadron specific B-Uhrs that featured the crests of various squadrons along with their designation engraved on the case. I think they were fairly popular, so it wouldn't be a bad idea to explore something like that.

I think someone like Galland falls on the right side of the line, while, say, someone like Hannah Reisch would not given her political sympathies.

This isn't the place for politics, however, I think that comment about Hanna Reitsch was grossly unfair. I'm not sure what you're basing your comment on, but having just finished her autobiography I would completely disagree with it.

I'd like to see a watch that takes the general thrust of Laco's watches and moves it in a different direction and the best area for this IMHO are the Marine stopwatches. These were used to time torpedoes, etc. Wouldn't this be a great starting point for a watch with real Laco DNA, but a totally different look?

Absolutely, I'm a fan of the idea, but I'm also curious as to your reasoning that the timepieces that were predominantly made by companies like Hanhart, Junghans and Minerva has a Laco connection. I'm unaware that Laco produced any stopwatches during that time period (or any other for that matter).

 

[Uwe W.]

My suggestion: a civilian naval design with a theme harking back to the glory days of German steam (Prue-WWI). Perhaps a watch commemorating the steam ship Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse.

Brilliant. Only we're now into things that predates Laco's history. However, as I said previously, I do like the idea of a commemorating a special ship (or plane, or person, etc...).

Here are some examples of those earlier B-Uhrs I mentioned in a previous post. I know a Czech watch forum did a project watch on this theme with Steinhart and was quite impressed with the look of the finished product. For those who desperately want this to be a flieger project, maybe a theme along the lines of a prototype B-Uhr would be of interest. The long lost B-Uhr design found in a dust-filled drawer of a former Laco employee...

Early B-Uhr by A. Lange & Söhne (photo Knirim)

And another.

Or, what about something that plays off the design of a Kadlec flight compass? These were worn alongside the Laco B-Uhr.

Should we quickly dismiss the long history of the Laco Sport?

The Aeromatic version of the W-SS dial.

 

[Uwe W.]

Dear Uwe: This is for you. I'd love to hear your comments on this idea of Janne's, which I and at least one other poster here think is excellent. Let us know!

I'm certainly not opposed to the idea - in fact, I own a Steinhart Marine Timer, which was modeled after a torpedo timer. However, I don't think this idea will work for this project. Along those lines I would rather use a deck watch, ship's chronometer or Laco's own navy watches as a guide. Unfortunately those designs mostly use sub-second dials, which the Durowe movement doesn't have.

The torpedo timer seems like too much of a stretch. But it's not up to me to decide! This is a democratic project; everyone will have an opportunity to pitch their ideas and vote on the collected suggestions. I will collect each design element idea discussed during each phase of this project - or at least the ones that have been seconded - and put them on a ballot for voting.

Uwe, please kindly advise if the movement will be decorated or just plain.... a bit wasted not to go to the fullest, like the WUS B project not to have Blued hands. Just my opinion.

I should be receiving actual photos of the movement any day now. I'm fairly certain though that they're not decorated as they are NOS items. I appreciate your desire to have something nice under the glass, but I think the effort of decorating the movement after the fact would put the cost of this project well out of reach of the majority of participants. We will be designing the hands, so certainly bluing will be an option we could explore.

I am in agreement with Uwe about the theme centering on an historical person or a particular ship or plane. German history is repleat with suitable examples, and we have had several mentioned already. Perhaps if agreement could be reached that we like the idea of this kind of historical commemoration theme, a poll could be set up to vote on the suggestions made so far.If we are going to go down the route of a torpedo timer, how about celebrating a particular U-Boat. How about U156, the boat which sank the Laconia and then rescued a load of the survivors. A uniquly humanitarian exploit by its captain Hartenstein, which deserves to be celebrated.

As I mentioned above, I'll go through everything suggested in this thread that drew interest and include it in a poll for voting. I have wanted to put together a commemorative U-boat watch for years, but wanted to really do it right by reproducing an actual issue watch. The lack of a sub-second complication is a deal breaker for me though. Still, there are many other possibilities.

Also - can someone please explain to me the purpose of the mirrored minute numerals in the SS watch dial.

Janne's mirror explanation is one reason. However, I've more frequently read that reversing numbers was for photographic purposes so that the time could be read regardless of the orientation of the negative.

if a W-SS soldier was taken as a POW, they were treated as normal soldiers. I am just trying to explain some facts, that more or less are forgotten, and explain why I have nothing against the W-SS insignia.

Not all were treated "normally". And certainly not those on the Eastern Front. You're fighting a lost cause here Janne and although the history tomes currently being written would support your claims, we need to keep this discussion centered on the special project watch. WUS is not a political forum gentlemen, so please, no more discussion regarding the SS! :rodekaart

Feel free to continue your debate through the PM system if you wish.

 

[Uwe W.]

I think I may be going against the grain here, but I cast my vote for a military design of navy influence. The flieger thing has been done to death. I own a bunch (and have a couple more on my "list"), but interesting naval observation watches are fewer and further between. Just my 2 cents.

Actually, if you read through this thread there is a lot of interest so far in a navy B-Uhr. I like the idea of mating the Durowe movement with something austere yet elegant - qualities that often describe marine watches.

 

[Uwe W.]

Durowe Photos

I'm not sure what bearing the photos of the Durowe will have on a theme discussion, but here they are. I'll post slightly larger ones later in the OVERVIEW thread. By the way, the OVERVIEW thread will contain a running synopsis of the project; it will be a handy reference thread for the project's participants, as well as a way for those new to the project to get caught up on the details of what has already happened without having to read countless posts in numerous threads. Hopefully it will also cut down on those newcomer questions.

 

[Uwe W.]

More Theme Ideas

Following up on my earlier suggestion to use a navigational compass as a theme, I'm including a few more photos.

The first photo shows how the Kadlec compass was worn in conjunction with a B-Uhr. It would be interesting (in my mind) to have a watch that imitates that style and would compliment a Laco B-Uhr that you might already own - sort of a matching set if you know what I mean.

Then I had another idea. Another navigational aid used by those who wore the B-Uhr was the sun compass. Often built by Plath, the sun compasses typically used 24 hour clocks from Junghans and were fitted to a special gimbal. The dial of those clocks are quite interesting, so I've included a few photos sourced from Knirim (of course!).

Finally, back to the W-SS artillery B-Uhr, I came across this photo floating around the internet. I believe it's Knirim himself displaying the two B-Uhren. Anyway, I just wanted to show how massive the 65 mm W-SS case really is.