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2011 Laco Special Edition Project - PROJECT THEME

72627 Views 279 Replies 43 Participants Last post by  StufflerMike
This thread is ONLY for the discussion and voting of the Special Project's theme and the name of the watch (if it is decided that a name will be used).
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You are right, Aristo does have a model with the sextant dial.
But I guess it's still more unique than your run of the mill A-dial B-dial...
Since the project is still in it's early phase...
Anyone with suggestions on the dial design better voice out now.
WOAH! Cool it! This is a thread about the general theme of the watch. There are steps involved in these projects, the first being to choose a general theme, and from there you choose the appropriate dial, hands, name, engraving etc. You will get the chance to debate the dial ad nauseam in the coming weeks, as well as all the other aspects, in separate threads.

For what it is worth I would be totally against anything carrying the SS logo, or in fact any design which has any association with the SS whatsoever. Wehrmacht, Luftwaffer, U-Boats maybe, but the SS should be out on taste grounds straight away. I can't believe anyone would go against that. It would be like having a swastika on there for heaven's sake!

With regards to the point about copying the dial design of a watch in someone's collection, there are no copyright issues at all. Ownership of a book does not give you any rights to the IP vesting in it, these belong to the author. With a watch, any rights would have belonged to the original creator, no doubt now long dead.

I can't believe you guys are SO unambitious with this opportunity. The general consensus seems to be "Oh! Its just TOO hard to design anything different, lets just put an existing dial in an existing watch and be done with it! Oh, my sore head, all that creativity was SUCH hard work!"

THEME people. What will the THEME be? Stay on TARGET!
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While Laco is most associated with historical Pilot watches, the typical B-hur hommages have been widely done. I think doing something different would be better for such a limited run. I do like the dial below, finding it keeps it in the genre, but different than an A or B dial.

In terms of my own thoughts, I would prefer a watch with more historical reference than modern. The movement is also small (26mm), so I think a smaller case would be more in keeping with the design. From an earlier post, it sounds like the two smallest case sizes would be 38mm and 42mm. It would also be nice to have an exhibition back. While the movement is not special in design or finishing, it would still be nice to see. As a variation off of a pilot, I would also suggest something like an officer's watch (deck watch style) with arabics and a dark dial. The hands would be on the traditional side with no date. It will be interesting to see how this project evolves.
Erm... did I come out sounding rough?
Sorry if I did...
What I meant was if there is any suggestions, now is the best time to be heard.
Any pictures or references would be ideal.
WOAH! Cool it! This is a thread about the general theme of the watch. There are steps involved in these projects, the first being to choose a general theme, and from there you choose the appropriate dial, hands, name, engraving etc. You will get the chance to debate the dial ad nauseam in the coming weeks, as well as all the other aspects, in separate threads.
Exactly! These projects are like herding cats with everyone running off in different directions with long lists of ideas. The purpose of this thread is to establish a theme for the watch - nothing more (other than possibly a name for the project). Let's try to focus on that. As Rev Fred said - there will be plenty of opportunity to discuss all the different design elements later on. We're not trying to design an entire watch in one thread, just to give this project a direction to move in.

hanz079 said:
Erm... did I come out sounding rough? Sorry if I did... What I meant was if there is any suggestions, now is the best time to be heard. Any pictures or references would be ideal.
Nothing wrong with what you said! I believe Rev Fred just didn't want everyone to get the wrong idea that this was the time to discuss dial designs. However, you are absolutely correct, now is the time to discuss the theme if you have an opinion on it - and yes - pictures will really help to support your point.

I've seen a lot of people sign up in the REGISTRATION thread saying that they are only interested if it's a 'pilot' watch project. Why is it that I haven't seen any of them commenting here on why they feel that way - or how a pilot watch would be suitable for a special project such as this. I would have to assume that all they're interested is a B-Uhr identical to those already being made except with the vintage Durowe movement. Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want. I have an Archimede that is the same as one of their production watches but was a special edition only because it uses a vintage Junghans movement. It is done.

I think we can stop discussing the W-SS label on the artillery B-Uhr. Of course we wouldn't ask Laco to print such a symbol on the dial. Our concern here is watches and their design, not politics.
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While Laco is most associated with historical Pilot watches, the typical B-hur hommages have been widely done. I think doing something different would be better for such a limited run. I do like the dial below, finding it keeps it in the genre, but different than an A or B dial.
Good point and I agree.

The movement is also small (26mm), so I think a smaller case would be more in keeping with the design. From an earlier post, it sounds like the two smallest case sizes would be 38mm and 42mm.
Actually it would be a 36 mm, not 38 mm, but the point is still a good one. We will discuss the case later in another thread, but the movement size should be a consideration for the theme too.

So far I have yet to read anyone support the idea of using one of Laco's civilian watches as a theme. I would have thought someone would have been interested in something along the lines of a Laco Sport. Does this mean we could at least narrow the theme selection down to it being a military inspired watch project?

We'll let this thread run for at least another week to give other people an opportunity to join in, and then we'll vote on the theme. So please voice any ideas you might have on this subject now so that we can incorporate them into the vote.
I interpret the wish for a "Pilots" watch as a wish for a dial with aMilitary connection. The guys wishing a Pilots dial (in fact the B-uhr dial) have already a huge selection to choose from.

As I wrote on a earlier post, we have dial designs stretching all the way to the late 1800.

I saw an interesting dial (again, source Knirim) belonging to a WW2 Submarine stopwatch.

Yes, it would be very challenging converting this dial to a 3 hand configuration.



Several pre-WW2 design are only suitable with the Laco Marine case
Some would look good with the B-uhr case.

Re W-SS: always a possibility to use a similar looking text. W-Laco ? W-ZZ etc Or even W-SS where the S is writen as a normal S and not the flash bolt, sharp curvature S.

Do not forget that SS used the skull etc. The W-SS is a more unusual one.
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For inspiration, look on www.knirim.de

Does anybody have the book?
Durowe 7525 movement


Pic borrowed from Dr Ranfft's Pink Pages
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How about a "Patina" Dial ?

Well, since the case and the movement have been decided already, perhaps we can have a "Patina" dial just like what they did with some of those new Panerai watches (e.g. 372). We just need to decide wether it is a type A or type B dial. I would hope for a type B dial because it is less common.

On the case back, maybe we can print everything in German, not English.

So basically the limited watch will have the following "new" features:

1) vintage German made hand-wind movement
2) "Patina" dial but should still "lume" at night!
3) Case back engraved in German, not English
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Re: How about a "Patina" Dial ?

2 case designs, not yet decided.

Correct, UWE?

B-uhr case 36, 42, 45mm



The other case (Marine) 44mm

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We need to focus: THEME IDEAS

Janne, there will be a special thread just to discuss and decide on a case. There will be a discussion thread just for the dial. There will be a discussion thread just for the hands.

For now I believe our energy would be better spent deciding a theme for this project. I understand that everyone is excited - that's great - but we really need to focus on the step by step process. Once a theme has been decided it will be much, much easier to work on the rest of the design elements.

I think most agree that this project watch should reflect Laco's heritage. However, should we pursuing a military or civilian design? It seems like most are only interested in military models. Alright, but then should it be an air or sea theme? Do we pursue a naval design that incorporates the elements of a ship's chronometer or a deck watch? Do we stick to the B-Uhr and create a variation of that theme or use an older B-Uhr design as a template? Or maybe we should look toward the design of Bord Uhren (aircraft clocks) or the timepieces worn by flight crew?

I will try to post photos of all of the above themes tonight (EST) to illustrate what I'm talking about.
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Re: We need to focus: THEME IDEAS

Understand.

Laco started -25, did only civilian watches untill the B-uhren (1939?). They were the only milpil designs they did untill that fateful night in -45.
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Re: We need to focus: THEME IDEAS

Laco started -25, did only civilian watches untill the B-uhren (1939?). They were the only milpil designs they did untill that fateful night in -45.
Laco also produced a wonderful naval version of the B-Uhr - in 1943 I believe. A faithful reproduction of this model is available in the Laco Shop as a very special edition of 20 samples (if I had the funds I would buy one tomorrow). As much as I would really love to do a proper KM wristwatch version of this B-Uhr, it would require a sub-second dial. I'm waiting on confirmation from Laco, but I believe the Durowe being used for this project has a central second hand. This alone makes doing any type of marine/navy/KM project difficult as the vast majority of those timepieces used sub-second dials. I have however found this intriguing design of a Lange KM B-Uhr that could be used for consideration.

Laco KM B-Uhr ('43-'44?)

A. Lange & Söhne KM B-Uhr (photo Knirim)
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Steinhart MARINE B-Uhr
(Photo: gnomon watches)

That sextant dial looks intriguing. How about "W-US" instead of "W-SS"?
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Laco also produced a wonderful naval version of the B-Uhr

View attachment 420977 A. Lange & Söhne KM B-Uhr (photo Knirim)
Thanks for the info, I should have seen that on the Laco site.... That Lange is nice..

Steinhart MARINE B-Uhr View attachment 420994 (Photo: gnomon watches)

That sextant dial looks intriguing. How about "W-US" instead of "W-SS"?
Steinhart missed bits...

W-US - GOOD IDEA!! Maybe the S could be of the Lightning flash type?
The normal S looks like coming from US (United States)
Re: We need to focus: THEME IDEAS

Hi -

First and foremost, the movement in question, the Durowe INT 7425-4, is the manual-wind version of the movement that Janne posted. It has a date quick-set, 11 1/2 ''', 25.6mm diameter, 3.9mm height, 17 jewels, 21600 A/h, power reserve 40h.

It has a center sweep second, hence: no sub-second design will translate well. The movement itself dates from the 1970s. The normal finishing of the movement is functional/industrial, and there really isn't too much call for a display back, as the movement lacks any finishing, such as blued screws, perlage, geneva stripes, anglage, etc etc etc.

Hence there are some significant design limitations, but that doesn't mean that we can't discuss what could work as an update to a classic design. Given the current availability of plenty of Flieger designs from Laco, I think a variation of the K-M design would be a more viable option and most certainly unique.

Here's a couple of thoughts:

1) The dial will make or break the watch, given the constraints we have.

2) We need to use an existing case (Uwe, can you get perhaps a serious of photographs that would give us the case options?)

Here's my off-the-top-of-my-head idea: Laco KM as per Uwe's post above, lose the sub-seconds dial, add sweep seconds hand.

Hands: blued steel, but with a different design than the Laco KM hands. Black lume (i.e. lume that looks black in the daylight, but shows a moderately subdued lume at night.

Dial: the original KM dials were porcelain, which is simply not doable anymore (too fragile, generally speaking, and unrepairable). However, I think you can get some of the depth that the porcelain dials were famous for (depth in the sense that there was a 3-D effect to the dial) by specifying the following: standard brass dial with date at 6, silver plating, no base coat, then 3 layers of flat white paint, but NOT with a white pigment (this would absorb too much light), then a layer of white paint mixed with a small amount of mother-of-pearl, than a finishing coat.

The dial numbers and the railroad-track chapter markings should be printed using some sort of rubber compound to hold the shape during the painting process and then removed to leave sharply defined indents, which would then be filled with black pigment before the final fishing coat. This could re-create the visual effect and feel of porcelain, but without the ensuing costs. Creating an etched-like effect for the numbers and railroad track would allow you to have a very flat dial, but with a 3-D effect.

Alternatively, if this is too difficult to do (and it is!), then a solid silver dial, date at 6, with a white non-pigment layer, print the 1-12 and railroad tracks in flat black, then put a gloss finish coat on that. The non-covering white would allow light to penetrate down to and then reflect off the silver.

Again, black lume on the numbers, but not on the railroad track (too distracting and non necessary to actually tell the time with at night!). Alternatively, if the black lume is only available on a very limited basis, then only lume the hands and the inverted triangle at 12.

But please: NO full dial lume: at night this is far too garish and distracting.

Oh, and sterile dial. No Laco, no WUS, just the basics. WUS logo and Laco on the case back, along with serial number and other info.

Depending on the case: WR 100m. Sapphire crystal, of course, no screw-down crown (duh: it's a manual wind watch...).

If the KM path is chosen, polished case. I'd prefer one with a slight matt finish, but polished case is more appropriate...

Alternatively: a 1970s design to reflect the heritage of the movement. But we need to see what cases are available!

JohnF
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Hi -

And please, please, please: let us not go the direction of using runes (aka lightning-S), as this takes us down a very dark and disturbing path. While I cannot speak for Laco or anyone else on the forum, the idea of using rune letters such as has been discussed would be, for me, absolutely and totally unacceptable, as the history associated with these is not something to be bandied about lightly, and the only Germans I know who would think that acceptable are those who find that history desirable. Put that on a watch, and it immediately becomes completely and totally unsellable in Germany and indeed could not be worn in polite society without calling the wearer's political beliefs into question.

It's not me: it is against the law in Germany to glorify that period of time, punishable by state prosecution (i.e. it becomes a Federal case and not a matter of local law enforcement)...

JohnF
I quite like the dial on this one. I like the large figures, which are historical, but also actually quite modern what with bigness being the order of the day.

But there I go discussing the dial!

For my part, not being an enthusiast of the pure pilot watches, I would like to see something a little different. I appreciate that I may be swimming against the tide here, but I think once the project has moved forward a bit and people appreciate the design freedoms we have, I hope most will have the courage to at least dip their toe in the ocean, if not lose sight of the shore.

Perhaps a compromise could be a pilot of sorts, which has a unique theme, and some special design elements to echo that theme.

Here's something, how about a Pilot themed around the German fighter ace Adolf Galland. The most successful fighter pilot of WW11 and a gentleman to boot. Popular on both sides after his outrage at the killing of RAF prisoners of war. Became friendly with British fighter pilots after the war. Quite a rebel with the higher powers of the time, marking him out as someone with a bit of sense.

Read about him here: Adolf Galland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So, any takers for the Laco Galland Special Edition Pilot? Galland had his ME109 painted with a yellow nose during the Battles of Britain and France, so there is some colour there we could use. An engraving of a 109 or a ME 262 which he also flew could go on the back.

Get the idea folks? Lets have some more suggestions.
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Oh, and to be clear, I believe there IS a distinction between certain German World War II references and others. Anything associated with National Socialism, the SS and so on should be dismissed out of hand. However, I think it is acceptable to refer to military themes like U-boats, tanks, planes, things like that. I think someone like Galland falls on the right side of the line, while, say, someone like Hannah Reisch would not given her political sympathies. Mein Kampf no, Das Boot yes. I may be quite wrong here, it would be interesting to hear what other people think.

If you look at the Laco website there are background images of Spitfires on there, so the brand deliberately associates itself with WWII.
Re: 2011 Laco Special Edition Project - GENERAL DISCUSSION

Dear Friends, I'd like to see a watch that takes the general thrust of Laco's watches and moves it in a different direction and the best area for this IMHO are the Marine stopwatches. Now, I realize we are talking about a standard, sweeping second hand watch, but I'd love to explore the single-handed, Marine stopwatches as a starting point for a more standard three-handed watch ... or a regulator if that is doable with the movement in question. (I have no idea.) If it is within the rules, I am pasting in the link to the image of the Submarine Hunters watch at Herr Knirim's page: http://www.knirim.de/a0501vor.jpg These were used to time torpedoes, etc. Wouldn't this be a great starting point for a watch with real Laco DNA, but a totally different look?
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