2011 Laco Special Edition Project - PROJECT THEME

Re: 2011 Laco Special Edition Project - GENERAL DISCUSSION

Everyone should have a quick read of this:
Strafgesetzbuch section 86a - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That link is the wikipedia article regarding the appropriate German law that we are discussing. I realise that this is not the place to discuss politics, but I think that if everyone had a quick read it would help us get over this little hurdle and continue on with the theme discussion.

The major points are:
The law prohibits the distribution or public use of symbols of unconstitutional groups, in particular, flags, insignia, uniforms, slogans and forms of greeting.
Formally:
(1) Whoever:
1. domestically distributes or publicly uses, in a meeting or in writings (§ 11 subsection (3)) disseminated by him, symbols of one of the parties or organizations indicated in § 86 subsection (1), nos. 1, 2 and 4; or 2. produces, stocks, imports or exports objects which depict or contain such symbols for distribution or use domestically or abroad, in the manner indicated in number 1, shall be punished with imprisonment for not more than three years or a fine.
(2) Symbols, within the meaning of subsection (1), shall be, in particular, flags, insignia, uniforms, slogans and forms of greeting. Symbols which are so similar as to be mistaken for those named in sentence 1 shall be deemed to be equivalent thereto. […]

I don't think that a general watch design qualifies.
Although I am not a lawyer, I don't think we would be in any breach of German law whatsoever.

Re: 2011 Laco Special Edition Project - GENERAL DISCUSSION

In an attempt to deffinitively bring this thread back on topic, as far as I can see, these are the ideas that have been presented so far (note: not all of these designs have equal support from members):

- German Engineering Celebration ( for example, a theme based on Focke-Wulf Fw 61 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )
- B-Uhr ( specifically based on the W-SS special Artillery watch)
- Timer/Stopwatch ( I see the most support for the colorful WW2 submarine stopwatch )
- Naval Civilian style ( to be honest I'm not exactly sure what this entails )
- Flight Compass theme
- Sun compass theme
- Non millitary theme, based on a vintage/previous SE Laco

Did I miss anything?

For what it's worth; by my eye, the top two designs that seem to have been discussed are the W-SS based B-Uhr theme and the timer theme.

Re: Marine Theme

A 100% visual replica can be made if the original was a watch, but in the case of a timer/stopwatch, then the dial has to be modified so the time can be read

So what do you say to the Brit at Heathrow Airport that asks you about your B-dialled B-uhr?

What will we say upon asking about the Torpedo Timer??


The Artillery watch was designed for Artillery use, for gods sake. We have already realised that using the W-SS letters will not happen.
Why blocking the dial?

Should it not be a majority decision which dial we select? Or do you feel so morally superior that you want to override our democratic process?


If we are becoming this morally PC, we might as well put an end to this project.
Most people would find it wrong to wear a watch design that was originally done for the German WW2 armed forces, full stop. I do not about what you have experienced, but I have received some negative comments about my WUS LE Laco. Not many, though.

Hi -

Let's stand back and think for a moment.

What really makes a watch?

Cosmetic design? Homage without end? To reference a German philosopher, the eternal return of the same?

I don't think so.

What we are considering here is a Laco special edition project. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'd like to take up something that Mike Stuffler brought up: having Lacher turn that fairly industrial and mundane movement into a movement that does justice to the tradition of Lacher, which just isn't about military-style watches.

Rather, let's consider what can be done with the movement - and while some here may not quite view it this way, the ultimate quality of a watch IS determined by the movement - and think of what can be done with that movement.

This movement doesn't hack: that alone should give rise to the idea that it shouldn't be used in a project that more or less demands the use of a hacked movement (i.e. one whose seconds hands could be stopped at will to synchronize with a known time source).

First of all, we have a classic amongst the mass of the post-war ebauché movements: a Durowe. While I don't have one in front of me to analyze specifically, I can make an educated guess: nickel and plated brass construction, with standard matte finishing (actually, it looks to be a light oxide layer on the metal, but that just takes a light wipe with a finishing cloth to remove).

Let's consider this: having the screws and some additional parts black-polished and then thermic-blued (the only real bluing a watchmaker wants to see, none of that chemical bluing!). The flat planes of the movement bridges do not. unfortunately, lend themselves to geneva striping, but I think that they could be beautifully frosted and red-gold plated; perlage then on the base plate. Think frosted red-gold and blued screws, in combination with a modest case size, but one that provides water resistance to 100m.

The watchmakers at Lacher, I am sure, would leap at a chance to do the really fancy work involved: I know not a watchmaker who wouldn't love to make a limited run of watches with the best possible finishing for the movement. Then a display back doesn't merely become an option, but rather more a real selling point for the watch. Let's add value where the value will really shine!

Oh, and of course adjusted to 6 positions. In for a pence, in for a pound, as the Brits say.

JohnF

DESIGN IS FINE, INSIGNIA IS OUT
TWO TOP DESIGNS ARE THE W-SS DIAL AND MARINE TORPEDO STOP WATCH
Hey everybody. Fascinating discussion and one that I think has been quite valuable both in terms of dealing with the watch designs we want and in terms of hashing out something that is quite interesting from a moral and aesthetic point of view. My thanks to everyone involved. I am particularly moved by the prominent German members of this group -- people who are far too young to have had anything to do with the ...... years -- and who have taken a stand against the use of National Socialist insignia. At the same time, I am impressed by Janne and his insistence, even though it will not make him look good in the eyes of some, that we all acknowledge the reality of the situation and that is that we are admirers of design used in to help the NS cause. I think that in the end, we seem to have come to a conclusion: Insignia directly relating to the SS or any other NS group are out; designs conceived during that time are just fine. I agree with this and think, if I may be so bold, that this conclusion might be a fine place to end the discussion.
Meanwhile, we have also, it seems to me narrowed down the designs we are in favor of. I think the W-SS dial (can we think of a better way to define that) and the Marine Stopwatch are the two that have the most support. What do you all think? Have I missed something?

For God's sake..... Read the above posts, The B-uhren ARE associated...
please, can we move on???

Uwe, can I suggest a little longer voting time? 7 days alltogether? Just so as many potential "customer" can vote.

To continue the real, important discussion, I see that we can go 2 roads.

The cheapest and easiest route, and a more expensive, complicated route.

Personally, I think that we should not try to do a cheapo project.
This is a one-off opportunity to create something interesting, visually AND mechanically.
I do not think we will ever get a chance again.
I have said this before, please realise that this will be an Inhouse Laco product, one of the "Made in Germany" watches with the highest % of German made components.

The whole process will take several months, so there is plenty of time to save.

Even if we go the full monty, with decorated movement, it will stil be cheaper that most watches (ETA powered) at the AD's which bear the writing Made in Switzerland.