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A-13A Automatic
paolorange
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397 Posts
Thanks Robert. The KS campaign is not going well and somehow this is just what I expected, but it's was worth to try.
However I do not feel like I want to give up the whole Flyback project.
I'm thinking to self finance the auto pretty much as I did (as we did) with the quartz and the Brave 75. I will review the price analysis, will hold the same "spark plug" package, etc., but absolutely no mechanical/quality modification to the watch itself. Let's see what happen.
What do you guys think?
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241 Posts
Paolo, It is a labor of love and you will find a way if you really want one, but I was a die hard fan of the idea of an automatic A13-A.
But after some evaluation of what my needs were the Quartz fit the bill just fine.
It's not that the price is out of line on the Flyback, its just that for a pilots tool, I can have an easier time living with the quartz.
I guess what I'm saying is offer it if you want to as long as it doesn't hurt your other product line to do so, but I don't believe the market is there for them to coexist with a 5 to 1 price ratio based solely on us watch geeks desire to have an automatic movement.
If it was marketed as a daily wearer than sure, gotta be an Auto. But a specific tool for a group of people who more than likely can and do have more than one watch? Nope.
I'll put it this way and be done with it...
If you were a total watch snob, but decided to Kayak across the ocean, and you REALLY wanted a Brietling Emergency II as a back up to save your biscuits , would it matter to you that it wasn't an automatic caliber? Probably not even a little, you are choosing that tool because of what it does. Same with your already awesome Quartz watch.
But thats just this guys opinion.
But after some evaluation of what my needs were the Quartz fit the bill just fine.
It's not that the price is out of line on the Flyback, its just that for a pilots tool, I can have an easier time living with the quartz.
I guess what I'm saying is offer it if you want to as long as it doesn't hurt your other product line to do so, but I don't believe the market is there for them to coexist with a 5 to 1 price ratio based solely on us watch geeks desire to have an automatic movement.
If it was marketed as a daily wearer than sure, gotta be an Auto. But a specific tool for a group of people who more than likely can and do have more than one watch? Nope.
I'll put it this way and be done with it...
If you were a total watch snob, but decided to Kayak across the ocean, and you REALLY wanted a Brietling Emergency II as a back up to save your biscuits , would it matter to you that it wasn't an automatic caliber? Probably not even a little, you are choosing that tool because of what it does. Same with your already awesome Quartz watch.
But thats just this guys opinion.
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7,374 Posts
Loved this comment Paolo!) keep everything! I'll work on a plan B.........
Unfortunately, I feel it takes a "real" watch person to really appreciate this watch, the components and the work that you have sacrificed and put into the entire package! I consider myself a very "real" watch enthusiast and like I mentioned in an earlier post, it is even a hard pill for me to swallow. Also, IMO, there are not a lot of "real" watch enthusiasts that follow KS. I have contributed to 6 or 8 and I believe there was one aimed at the serious watch enthusiast (read - expensive)... and it never made it.
I do not know if 80 pieces are your break-even point, or even to pay yourself a small salary to feed the family, etc. Have you reached out to other wristwatch forums, seeking their support? I believe, I am a member of 4 or 5 others and have noticed there may be the type of clientele that you require (read - well-heeled, etc!). I am one of the few non-pilot watch guys who respects and admires, what it is you guys do. So, not being in the hobby/industry, I would suspect there are several forums revolving around this area. Perhaps, you could reach out to them as well? It only makes sense that targeting pilots would be to your advantage. Take some of that Breitling money!!
Again, Paolo... I wish you (us) nothing but the best of luck and applaud your efforts and enthusiasm. They are much appreciated by myself and a handful of like-minded watch-nuts!
Keeping my fingers crossed!
Robert
Edit: I would really be a fan of the Gator strap option! I think this would be an awesome look, with a nice deployant! Again, I am probably a small minority of the minority.
Well said Henry. I thought that an automatic A-13A would be nice to have but after I really considered what I need this timepiece to do, the quartz just does it better - for me. I appreciate immensely what Paolo has created and his passion for a true pilot's watch. Perhaps picking up a second quartz is in the cards.......
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241 Posts
I want to subtly emphasize to Paolo that the Quartz is the bread and butter...
There is a terrible example in the gun world, which replicates this situation almost perfectly.
There was an upstart company a few years back called USFA and the were a specialty maker in the Cowboy Action Shooting section of the gun industry.
Purpose built and beautiful with affordable prices Colt couldn't touch! Even a web presence that was the envy of other companys with full color pics in detailed settings (paolo, take heed, need more web presence) anyway they were a huge hit and even started to hire some of the most noted guys in the industry as IC's like Doug Turnbull for his case color hardening! (Breathtaking)
The owner got a design in his head for a plastic Zip gun, a plastic 22 pistol (?) that could fit under an AR platform. The design was laughable, the execution sucked and his customer base were cowboys not tactical guys (who would never buy the piece of garbage anyway) but as the owner, he pressed on! Dumping tons of money into the project, and when that didn't fix the problems he dumped even more!
Not saying it was the only issue, but sadly USFA today is no more. There original guns are very desirable, but the Zip Gun is mostly credited with destroying a terrific growth company!
I know Paolos into guns, so maybe he will do some research and take appropriate actions, whatever that may be, but if its a tool for pilots, be a tool. If its a watch geeks wet dream, better come up with some other farkles to make it worth the difference in price.
Another suggestion would be to see if you could source Lemania 5100 actions by scouring the net and buying up used ones and only make the Flyback on a custom ordered basis....(saw a few paul picots in the $800 range..."send me a Lemania 5100 and I will build you a custom only mechanical A13A!"
And yes Paolo, I do charge by the hour for consulting fees, luckily I'm cheap, an hour of avgas in your plane 😉
There is a terrible example in the gun world, which replicates this situation almost perfectly.
There was an upstart company a few years back called USFA and the were a specialty maker in the Cowboy Action Shooting section of the gun industry.
Purpose built and beautiful with affordable prices Colt couldn't touch! Even a web presence that was the envy of other companys with full color pics in detailed settings (paolo, take heed, need more web presence) anyway they were a huge hit and even started to hire some of the most noted guys in the industry as IC's like Doug Turnbull for his case color hardening! (Breathtaking)
The owner got a design in his head for a plastic Zip gun, a plastic 22 pistol (?) that could fit under an AR platform. The design was laughable, the execution sucked and his customer base were cowboys not tactical guys (who would never buy the piece of garbage anyway) but as the owner, he pressed on! Dumping tons of money into the project, and when that didn't fix the problems he dumped even more!
Not saying it was the only issue, but sadly USFA today is no more. There original guns are very desirable, but the Zip Gun is mostly credited with destroying a terrific growth company!
I know Paolos into guns, so maybe he will do some research and take appropriate actions, whatever that may be, but if its a tool for pilots, be a tool. If its a watch geeks wet dream, better come up with some other farkles to make it worth the difference in price.
Another suggestion would be to see if you could source Lemania 5100 actions by scouring the net and buying up used ones and only make the Flyback on a custom ordered basis....(saw a few paul picots in the $800 range..."send me a Lemania 5100 and I will build you a custom only mechanical A13A!"
And yes Paolo, I do charge by the hour for consulting fees, luckily I'm cheap, an hour of avgas in your plane 😉
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7,374 Posts
One more question Paolo... are you planning on having these serialized? It would sure be cool to have a matched set, with the same serial #!
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Hi, Paolo,
I've just come back to this forum page after some time away. I'm very sorry to hear that the auto hasn't yet got off the ground after all your labours, though not entirely surprised. There are a very few very high end bespoke watchmakers who manage to sell at an extreme premium price, but the A-13A auto is too cheap for that, though possibly too expensive from a relatively unknown brand for those like me who'd also think about a Sinn EZM1 or 1.1, or Damasko DC80. If you look at Sinn's prices, they and Fortis were very much at the toolish end of the watch spectrum 10-15 years ago. Fortis is relatively cheap, still, but Sinn's prices have risen quite a bit in the last few years - though on the back of a lot of technical development works.
I've got a Fortis B-42 Titanium Cosmonaut with the Lemania 5100. It's a great pilot's watch - not that I've done much flying in the last few years. I also have a Sinn 140A LE with the Sinn SZ01 movement - a modification of the Valjoux 7750. It's a great watch, though still overshadowed for me by the Fortis, and I'm thinking of trading it for something else and, I hope, getting another Quartz A-13A (I traded my first for the Sinn).
Would I buy a chronograph because it has a flyback? Well, I have thought about a used Breguet XXI for $5k to $6k but can't afford it at the moment. It appeals because, though it's similar functionality to the Lemania 5100 Fortis it's more dressy, and has a 200-year old brand history. The flyback is a factor, but a relatively small one.
Would I get an auto A-13A? Well, that's the other problem - the quartz model is so good, apart from weak lume, that it's hard to justify the significant premium for an auto version which functionally gains the flyback but loses one of the best features of the quartz - the quickset hour hand (great for travel, whether in the cockpit or in seat 45K). The Quartz is a great watch at a good price point; but there is so little visual difference between the two that it's hard to see the extra value in the auto - and I completely get the point about the cost and scale factors of the auto's price.
I wonder what would it cost to switch to a refurbished L5100, 5012, or a SZ01 movement - Tutima, Sinn and Damsko all have the latter or something similar - and add a 12 hour bezel and a date? It wouldn't have the purity of the original design, though's always the quartz, but I have seen watch clocks like the A-13A with bezels, and I'd be interested in one - particularly if I could get it in Titanium. Perhaps Fortis's case maker would sell you a B-42 titanium case - it must be similar dimensions and similar thickness to the A-13A auto...
Cheers, and good luck, Paolo.
I've just come back to this forum page after some time away. I'm very sorry to hear that the auto hasn't yet got off the ground after all your labours, though not entirely surprised. There are a very few very high end bespoke watchmakers who manage to sell at an extreme premium price, but the A-13A auto is too cheap for that, though possibly too expensive from a relatively unknown brand for those like me who'd also think about a Sinn EZM1 or 1.1, or Damasko DC80. If you look at Sinn's prices, they and Fortis were very much at the toolish end of the watch spectrum 10-15 years ago. Fortis is relatively cheap, still, but Sinn's prices have risen quite a bit in the last few years - though on the back of a lot of technical development works.
I've got a Fortis B-42 Titanium Cosmonaut with the Lemania 5100. It's a great pilot's watch - not that I've done much flying in the last few years. I also have a Sinn 140A LE with the Sinn SZ01 movement - a modification of the Valjoux 7750. It's a great watch, though still overshadowed for me by the Fortis, and I'm thinking of trading it for something else and, I hope, getting another Quartz A-13A (I traded my first for the Sinn).
Would I buy a chronograph because it has a flyback? Well, I have thought about a used Breguet XXI for $5k to $6k but can't afford it at the moment. It appeals because, though it's similar functionality to the Lemania 5100 Fortis it's more dressy, and has a 200-year old brand history. The flyback is a factor, but a relatively small one.
Would I get an auto A-13A? Well, that's the other problem - the quartz model is so good, apart from weak lume, that it's hard to justify the significant premium for an auto version which functionally gains the flyback but loses one of the best features of the quartz - the quickset hour hand (great for travel, whether in the cockpit or in seat 45K). The Quartz is a great watch at a good price point; but there is so little visual difference between the two that it's hard to see the extra value in the auto - and I completely get the point about the cost and scale factors of the auto's price.
I wonder what would it cost to switch to a refurbished L5100, 5012, or a SZ01 movement - Tutima, Sinn and Damsko all have the latter or something similar - and add a 12 hour bezel and a date? It wouldn't have the purity of the original design, though's always the quartz, but I have seen watch clocks like the A-13A with bezels, and I'd be interested in one - particularly if I could get it in Titanium. Perhaps Fortis's case maker would sell you a B-42 titanium case - it must be similar dimensions and similar thickness to the A-13A auto...
Cheers, and good luck, Paolo.
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7,245 Posts
It probably would not be practical for a small brand and project, but over on the Watchmaking subforum , @Joe Horner posted an interesting workaround to avoid the low-crown problem, which he found in a Breitling he was servicing. Whether this was done to avoid owner prejudice as Joe posits or to avoid the crown digging into the wrist, I suppose only Breitling know for sure.
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397 Posts
Alter the Brave 75, the Fabulous 55 are coming.....
![15985680]( "15985680")
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1,085 Posts
I'm just not going to get another watch until the flyback is available man it looks good.
man it looks good.
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397 Posts
Can you please PM your email? Thanks.I'm just not going to get another watch until the flyback is available
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55 are needed for this very special watch , and it could be that it stay`s under 100 pieces in total.............
so you have a chance to own a very exclusive watch.
Made for the Aviators, and by the Aviators , this is not about size, and not about price, this is about the World`s best timing Device !!
![16011846]( "16011846")
pic credit paolo fanton
, and it could be that it stay`s under 100 pieces in total............. so you have a chance to own a very exclusive watch.
Made for the Aviators, and by the Aviators , this is not about size, and not about price, this is about the World`s best timing Device !!
pic credit paolo fanton
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442 Posts
What a beauty! And beautiful photo too!
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The A-13A Flyback Chronograph — Tried And Tested By Real Pilots
✓ A passion project brought to life by Italian pilot and watch enthusiast Paolo Fanton ✓ The A-13A is now available in a mechanical version ✓
www.fratellowatches.com
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63 Posts
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Hi Paolo, Sorry if this was mentioned elsewhere, but what level of accuracy are you hoping to achieve? Or maybe this isn’t that relevant if you’re only timing 60 minutes at once. I’m not a pilot, if it isn’t obvious with this question
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...and it should have been obvious to me to check his FB pageHi Paolo, Sorry if this was mentioned elsewhere, but what level of accuracy are you hoping to achieve? Or maybe this isn't that relevant if you're only timing 60 minutes at once. I'm not a pilot, if it isn't obvious with this question
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I found an answer that's good for me.
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