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A technical question: A couple of days ago I built a new mod and changed hands on a movement that works perfectly well (+1 sec./day) on the balance side (according to my timegrapher) but now loses about 15-20 minutes per hour(!) on the hands' side. Any idea, where this strange behaviour might come from?
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I assume:
  • "Balance Side" = Dial UP
  • "Hands Side" = Dial DOWN

Is this correct?


1. If the dial feet are broken or removed and you forget to use adhesive 'Dial Dots' to attach the dial, the dial will fall onto the hands when the watch is turned Dial Down. This will impede the movement of the hands and may cause the watch to lose time.

2. If the dial attachment screws are not tight, the dial may remain loose and when the watch is turned Dial Down, the dial could fall onto the hands and impede their movement.

3. It is not unusual for a Balance Staff Pivot to be broken yet the Balance continues to turn fairly precisely when it is rotating on the undamaged pinion.
If a Balance is installed improperly you can break or bend a pivot and you may not notice this because it is very small.
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Thanks, Matt, for your quick answer. I probably did not describe correctly what I meant. With "balance side" I meant that the "ticking" of the movement (which is recorded and translated by the timegrapher into the graph) is OK, whereas the hands move far too slowly. The dial is correctly fixed on the movement. It is an original Vostok dial with dial feet and the fixing screws are tightened.
The problem with the broken balance pinion seems more probable to me. Do I have any chance to see this kind of damage in any kind of data on the timegrapher (I only have a cheap Chinese Weishi 1000, as I am not a professional watchmaker)?
 
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... the "ticking" of the movement (which is recorded and translated by the timegrapher into the graph) is OK, whereas the hands move far too slowly.
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A broken Balance Staff Pivot (the fine tip of each end of the Balance Staff that fit inside the Balance pivot jewels) will often exhibit a very obvious problem when the movement is positioned so that the Balance rests on the broken pivot. The Balance may slow down considerably, move erratically and perhaps stop completely. You will see this visually and on the timegrapher.


If the hands are moving slowly / losing time but the movement itself appears to be working properly:
most often the problem is:

1. loose hands
2. loose Cannon Pinion
3. Dial Washer missing

You said that you changed the hands recently.
It is possible that you did not install them properly or seat them fully and now they are slipping.
Also, hands may become loose if they are removed and installed more than a few times because the mounting holes can become worn and the hands cannot seat tightly.

15968136


Fortunately, it appears Vostok movements do not have a problem with loose cannon pinions more than many other brands. To repair a loose Vostok Cannon Pinion you must tighten the crimp. This is the same common standard method used for most mechanical movements.
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A broken Balance Staff Pivot (the fine tip of each end of the Balance Staff that fit inside the Balance pivot jewels) will often exhibit a very obvious problem when the movement is positioned so that the Balance rests on the broken pivot. The Balance may slow down considerably, move erratically and perhaps stop completely. You will see this visually and on the timegrapher.


If the hands are moving slowly / losing time but the movement itself appears to be working properly:
most often the problem is:

1. loose hands
2. loose Cannon Pinion
3. Dial Washer missing

You said that you changed the hands recently.
It is possible that you did not install them properly or seat them fully and now they are slipping.
Also, hands may become loose if they are removed and installed more than a few times because the mounting holes can become worn and the hands cannot seat tightly.

View attachment 15968136

Fortunately, it appears Vostok movements do not have a problem with loose cannon pinions more than many other brands. To repair a loose Vostok Cannon Pinion you must tighten the crimp. This is the same common standard method used for most mechanical movements.
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Again, Matt, thanks so much for your competent and detailed answer! I checked the hands when I encountered the problem for the first time and they were very tightly seated on the hour wheel and cannon pinion. The dial washer is in its place, I didn't remove it when I changed the dial. I'm pretty sure now that the second point you mentioned - the loose cannon pinion - is the solution to the problem. I will try to fix it although I'm not sure if my equipment is sufficient for it. I will see. In the meantime, I had already removed dial and hands from the damaged movement and put them on a new one and now the new mod is working perfectly. So I have a lot of time to fix the problem now.
 
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How do you tell which main spring barrel is which?
I do know the one on the right came out of a 2409, the left one has a taller input shaft, but how do you tell? thank you so much.
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I have another question as well......
How do you remove the winding crown tubes and what tools are needed? thank you, James.
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How do you remove the winding crown tubes and what tools are needed?
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Hi James,

Case / Crown Tube: Removal & Installation

What tools to use and the methods you use depend upon if you want the actual tools that are made for the task or if you want to use common tools you may have already, and modify them slightly if necessary.

I have always heated the entire case to 500F in an oven as a first step, with crystal removed.
Then clamped into a vise, before it cools, ensuring that you clamp the area of the tube. Use wood or pads on the vise jaws to prevent damage.

If you are discarding the Case Tube, Vise grips and / or a dent puller with sliding weight has been successful for me to remove it. I have never removed a Case Tube that I had to re-install; so for me the damage to it when removing it was of no importance. You must be careful to not break the threaded head from the tube, especially if using vise grips or similar to grip and pull the tube. If broken, you must then grind off any remaining part of the head / top, then use a punch to remove the tube from case.

Another option:
Clamp the case in a vise and use a drill press to drill out the case tube.
Use a bit that is only the same OD as the case tube part which fits into the case.
Use a little light oil to help to keep the bit cool and lubricated.

--------

I install by using a fairly large and heavy pin punch, with a piece of brass or aluminium on top of the Crown Tube for protection, then hammer the punch.
This has been successful for me with no problems or damage.


Bench Vise as a Press:

You can use a common bench vise with DIY jigs or dies to create a Case Tube Press that functions similar to a genuine Case Tube Press.


Case Tube Presses:

These function by pressing the tube out, from the inside of the case, using dies of the correct size for the tube.
There is usually an installation feature also.
Good presses as this one below are expensive and may not be a wise purchase if you seldom use it.
Hand held presses may be difficult to use and not apply enough force.

15976831

Horotec Case Tube Press with dies

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*** If anyone has their own method and / or tool ideas:
Please send me a PM.
I will create an article tutorial to place in the 'Articles' section of the Russian Forum.

-------------

- this enitre 'Guide' thread will be given a new format and all 'How To' / tutorials and most other info. and data will be moved into separate articles in the 'Articles' section of the Russian Forum. This will make it easier to find all the information and tutorials.
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Hello guys, someone know if actual hands for amphibia (2416) fit vintage 2409?

I was thinking that it will fit, but i'm having problems with the seconds hand
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Yes, they will fit, but as you discovered, they will not always fit easily.
There are quality control issues such as slightly larger or smaller pinions for the hands and there have been periods of time in the past 30 years when this has been a larger problem.

- Vintage 2409: how old is it?

Remember to support the Seconds Hand Pinion spring when you install the Seconds hand.
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Yes, they will fit, but as you discovered, they will not always fit easily.
There are quality control issues such as slightly larger or smaller pinions for the hands and there have been periods of time in the past 30 years when this has been a larger problem.

- Vintage 2409: how old is it?

Remember to support the Seconds Hand Pinion spring when you install the Seconds hand.
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Many many thanks Matt, so i will keep trying it tomorrow, and will tell you if it works

Yes i supported the seconds hand pinion spring with a pencil cap

The 2409 movement i think is from de 90's or so
 

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Many many thanks Matt, so i will keep trying it tomorrow, and will tell you if it works

Yes i supported the seconds hand pinion spring with a pencil cap

The 2409 movement i think is from de 90's or so
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Ensure the tiny hole in the Seconds Hand mounting tube is not damaged.
Sometimes if a Seconds hand does not fit easily, or if we are not careful, that tube, often made of brass, could be damaged and the hole could get burrs.

It is sometimes easier to fit the Seconds hand if you first chamfer the opening of that mounting tube.
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Hi James,

Case / Crown Tube: Removal & Installation

What tools to use and the methods you use depend upon if you want the actual tools that are made for the task or if you want to use common tools you may have already, and modify them slightly if necessary.

I have always heated the entire case to 500F in an oven as a first step, with crystal removed.
Then clamped into a vise, before it cools, ensuring that you clamp the area of the tube. Use wood or pads on the vise jaws to prevent damage.

If you are discarding the Case Tube, Vise grips and / or a dent puller with sliding weight has been successful for me to remove it. I have never removed a Case Tube that I had to re-install; so for me the damage to it when removing it was of no importance. You must be careful to not break the threaded head from the tube, especially if using vise grips or similar to grip and pull the tube. If broken, you must then grind off any remaining part of the head / top, then use a punch to remove the tube from case.

I install by using a fairly large and heavy pin punch, with a piece of brass or aluminium on top of the Crown Tube for protection, then hammer the punch.
This has been successful for me with no problems or damage.


Bench Vise as a Press:

You can use a common bench vise with DIY jigs or dies to create a Case Tube Press that functions similar to a genuine Case Tube Press.


Case Tube Presses:

These function by pressing the tube out, from the inside of the case, using dies of the correct size for the tube.
There is usually an installation feature also.
Good presses as this one below are expensive and may not be a wise purchase if you seldom use it.
Hand held presses may be difficult to use and not apply enough force.

View attachment 15976831
Horotec Case Tube Press with dies

.
*** If anyone has their own method and / or tool ideas:
Please send me a PM.
I will create an article tutorial to place in the 'Articles' section of the Russian Forum.

-------------

- this enitre 'Guide' thread will be given a new format and all 'How To' / tutorials and most other info. and data will be moved into separate articles in the 'Articles' section of the Russian Forum. This will make it easier to find all the information and tutorials.
.
Thank you Matt, I think I may pick up a Horotec Case Tube Press. It takes a lot of pressure to press in and remove these so I think a decent tool is in order to make things easy and not to damage the case or tube. Thank you sir and have a good evening, James.
 

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How do you tell which main spring barrel is which?
I do know the one on the right came out of a 2409, the left one has a taller input shaft, but how do you tell? thank you so much. View attachment 15976105
Hello James,

Here's a link (scroll down) that should explain your Vostok arbor (input shaft) mystery, arbors are the same for all Vostok 24xx movements but basically the shorter arbor are old (mid-1980's and earlier) and the longer arbor are newer...

Hope this helps a little...;)
 

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I am still confused on the main spring barrels, does anyone have charts, pictures, measurements that define which one is
which? as far as the modern spring barrels i think there are three? 2416, 2414, 2409. How do you tell them apart?
 

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I am still confused on the main spring barrels, does anyone have charts, pictures, measurements that define which one is
which? as far as the modern spring barrels i think there are three? 2416, 2414, 2409. How do you tell them apart?
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I am also confused.
Hopefully someone with the knowledge and experience will reply.

I don't understand why 2409 and 2414 would have different barrels or mainsprings.

Meranom and several ebay sellers have them listed as separate parts, but other sellers, such as Komandirskie.com lists them as the same part.

I personally see no visual difference between these two barrels and mainsprings.

On the interior wall of the 24xx Automatic barrel, there are several indentations that the 2409/2414 barrels do not have.
Outwardly though, all barrels appear quite identical.

The 24xx automatic mainspring is identified by its long bridle hook at the end.
Some sellers show a photo of the 24xx Auto. / 2416 mainspring, removed from the barrel, on their listing for 2409 or 2414 barrel / mainspring. It is easy to be confused; people must be careful. It is common practice for some sellers to use one photo for several listings, to save time.
Buyers should contact the seller to ensure they will receive the proper part.

-------
As jimzilla says:

If anyone has charts, pictures, measurements that define which one is which, please post this information.
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Then I think I would have to order them from Meranom and mark them as to which ones are which,
Thank you Matt, I hope you are doing well my friend. Best regards, James.
 

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Many many thanks Matt, so i will keep trying it tomorrow, and will tell you if it works

Yes i supported the seconds hand pinion spring with a pencil cap

The 2409 movement i think is from de 90's or so
Maybe if the seconds pinion is very slightly bent, the hands will not fit. I've seen that on some "dirskies" rescued from the dead, powered by the 2409
 

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Many many thanks Matt, so i will keep trying it tomorrow, and will tell you if it works

Yes i supported the seconds hand pinion spring with a pencil cap

The 2409 movement i think is from de 90's or so
Finally i managed to fit all the hands with a bit of patience

Here the result


 

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Evening gents, 2 quick questions.

1. Can the crown be separated from the stem, and a different (non-vostok) crown be put on the Vostok stem? Like is there any reasonable way to rig this?

I am planning a killer build where I take an Explorer style case in black PVD however the crown, crown tube and all the threading doesn't remotely match that of the Vostok. The Vostok crown is from a 420 case, I want to somehow mate the stem to the custom black crown that comes with the Explorer case and ditch the actual Vostok crown altogether.

2. Assuming the answer to #1 is no, what is the thread pitch of the Vostok crown tube and crown? Perhaps I will retap the thread with the larger vostok threading and just use the entire Vostok crown as it is.

Would love any insight on this from the Masters.
 
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