I recently had to send in my Hamilton Khaki field automatic in for servicing. Fortunately, it was within warranty so I only had to pay for shipping it to a Swatch Group USA facility.

I've recently found out that the H-10 movement the watch comes with is that Swatch Group did something similar to what they did with the System 51 mechanizing the production process basically removing the watch maker, including more plastic parts (as opposed to the original ETA's), making regulation of the movement difficult making it hard to find an independent watch maker to service and repair.

Is this the case or has anyone experienced this with their Hamilton or other Swatch group watches (like Tissot)?

The H-10 version of the movement does not have plastic parts. The "Powermatic80" versions used by Tissot and Certina have plastic. Not that that's inherently a problem. The legendary Lemania 5100 had a bunch of plastic parts.

The greatest difficulty an independent watchmaker will face is parts availability. If they don't have a Swatch account, they aren't going to be able to get parts. Other than the balance, the rest of the movement is very similar to the old 2824. The balance is now free sprung (like Rolex, Omega, and other higher end makers). I would think a properly trained watchmaker would be able to deal with it. But regulating is no longer a task for the shade-tree hobbyist with a case opener and a screwdriver.

 

So is the H-10 more durable or longer lasting than the Powermatic80?

 

...
I've recently found out that the H-10 movement the watch comes with is that Swatch Group did something similar to what they did with the System 51 mechanizing the production process basically removing the watch maker, including more plastic parts (as opposed to the original ETA's), making regulation of the movement difficult making it hard to find an independent watch maker to service and repair.
....

Where did you find all this out about the H-10 movement, especially regarding plastic parts? Plus, why would you want an independent watchmaker to work on a Hamilton or any other Swatch group watch, for that matter, when Swatch Group has set up its own service centres for its watches?

 

One of the watch enthusiast YouTube channels I follow. Also, if I want to have the watch repaired or serviced locally rather than send it to Swatch Group I should have that option.

 

Have several watches with this movement. No issues for any of mine.

Maybe find another "enthusiast" channel for other comparisons on this movement?

 

There are no polymer parts in the H-10. I had a Hamilton with this movement cleaned and serviced by a local jeweler last year and he didn't have any issues working on it. Only thing he mentioned was that Swatch service centers don't really replace parts much anymore. They just completely swap out the movement when something is wrong. But the majority of manufacturers do this now.

 

Taking a lesson from Timex of the 1960s, my father would buy a Timex and with the horrible work conditions we labored it within a year the case would be corroded or the movement acting up. He would return it and Timex would send a new one for free.

 

Is this the case or has anyone experienced this with their Hamilton or other Swatch group watches (like Tissot)?

I recently took my Dad's Hamilton chronograph (ETA 7750) in for a service and the watchmaker was looking it over and said some of the more recent Hamilton and Tissot's are using more and more plastic. As a result, he said they are doing more movement swaps rather than servicing.

 

It's a solid movement with no plastic. For less than $200 for a complete service/movement replacement with another two years of warranty on the work, not sure why you'd want anyone but Swatch looking at it once it's out of it's original warranty. 🤷‍♂️

 

I think they increased the prices a bit recently but yeah, still better than almost any independent shop would charge for it.

 

Same doubt I had, as they already said, no plastic parts in there.

 

There are some REAL differences worth noting between the previous ubiquitous 2824-2 and the newer H-10.


H-10 ticks at 3Hz vs. the 2824's 4Hz. This means the H-10 has a sweep similar to a Seiko, and is not as smooth as the 2824.

This also means the H-10's escapement and gear train is subjected to impulse at a 25% slower rate, which could mean slower wear and more time before failure vs. the 2824.

The 2824-2 with its regulator screw is very easy to regulate by any amateur with a screwdriver and a timegrapher. The H-10 has regulator screws on the balance wheel spokes which should only be turned by a skilled watchmaker.

Because there is no longer a regulator pin controlling the geometry of the spring, it can't be shaken out of regulation, making it more shock resistant. The balance spring is free, which is typically found in higher end brands.

The H-10 has more than double the spec power reserve (80 hours vs. 38 hours). This is thanks to a longer thinner mainspring and skinnier barrel casing and arbor. This could be more difficult to service. The spring could also be easier to break, though that probably has more potential to be a problem in the manual wind version.

Current production of the H-10 includes the Nivachron balance spring which has far better magnetic resistance than standard Nivaflex used in older movements. Some Powermatic 80 movements use silicon balance springs, but so far Hamilton doesn't use those.


Otherwise the 2824-2 and H-10 are very similar, and service procedures are likely very similar between the two. The H-10 (ETA C07) has been around for over 10 years now. If there were real problems with these movements we'd know about it by now.

 

23 jewel have the synthetic essapement parts the 25 jewels do not, there are model numbers that list the specs.

https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/h-10-movement-details.4636991/#post-45276251

 

25 jewel have the synthetic essapement parts the 25 jewels do not, there are model numbers that list the specs.

https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/h-10-movement-details.4636991/#post-45276251

Don’t you mean 23J have the synthetic escapement?

 

The Hamilton H10 is the Hamilton branded version of the ETA C07.611, which does NOT have a synthetic escapement.

The movement switching during a service is not done because the movement isn't serviceable (it is) but only to keep turnaround times manageable for the customers. Due to a structural shortage of skilled watchmakers it would take many, many months to service each individual movement like in the past.

The big advantage is that the C07 movements have a free-sprung balance design which makes them more accurate and less susceptible to isochronism fluctuations and positional variance.

 

It could be made out of cardboard for all I care as long as it keeps good time and is dependable like the H-10 has been for me over the years.....

 

Horses for courses...
I know what I would prefer to see in my watch movements.
I also know given the choice, I would choose to have the ability to adjust the timing of the movement.

I like it better when I don't have to. But you do you. Be careful.

Stay away from anything with a Lemania 5100 (used in legends like the Speedmaster, PD Orfina). Bunch of plastic in that thing.

Yep... also Seiko 4R/6R movements, pretty much any quartz movement these days, and some 861-powered Omega Speedmasters. Many of those Delrin chrono brakes are over 50 years old now.

 

I like it better when I don't have to. But you do you. Be careful.


Yep... also Seiko 4R/6R movements, pretty much any quartz movement these days, and some 861-powered Omega Speedmasters. Many of those Delrin chrono brakes are over 50 years old now.

The point, in this instance is: for this movement (eta C0xxx Powermatic 80) as fitted to Tissot,
that yes they can be re- calibrated at service, however as is now widely known
when a watch with this movement is sent to swatch for service, the movement is not serviced and is swapped out.
thus making this movement disposable. That was my point.

 

I have no data on this, but if I was a betting man……

The Swatch Group has tested the plastic parts and determined they have a life span that ‘should’ exceed the warranty time period. They have data that shows the % of Powermatic 80 watches that require warranty service claims related to the movement. Between these two factors they feel that the savings in the Powermatic 80 movement’s plastic parts exceed the potential warranty claims. This is more profitable to them. They like more profit.

The cost of person to open the watch remove and replace a regulated movement is less than the cost for a watchmaker to open the watch, diagnose the issue, clean and replace the parts, regulate, and test the watch. This balanced against the charge for a service is more profit.

Moral of the story……MORE PROFIT.

I venture that the plastic parts issues are less of a concern to the Tissot buyer demographic and that’s why you don’t see them used in other models brands at this price point. Although that is a pure guess. Similar to Swatch being sealed. Watch Geeks find this to be abhorrent, Joe Fun Watch buyer will have quit wearing the watch before it needs service.

All this being said. I wouldn’t own the piece of ****.

My H-10 watches (6) run well and run closer to COSC than the tolerances. Swatch Group Hamilton service has always treated me well (used twice).

 

"All this being said. I wouldn’t own the piece of ****. "

His Choice...

 

As far as I am aware, replacement parts for the eta C0xxx plastic escapement movements are not supplied to anyone outside of the swatch group.
Therefore building in obsolescence when. swatch group decides to cease production of that line of movement, the watch requiring that particular movement
will become a doorstop. (swatch group decides this, not the consumer).
You are welcome to form an opinion about the value proposition watches with this movement hold,
just as I am free to form an opinion to avoid them.

Swatch accounts have access to parts for any Swatch Group movement.

A quick google for 9F plastic parts:
Seiko also makes a point of stating that the 9F quartz movements use no plastic as structural or active parts of the movement as it has been designed to be a "watch that will last a life-time".

"There are only 3 points in the movement that are made of plastic and these act only as insulators. "

So, not quite the same as a plastic gear, or escapement.

You asked if it had plastic parts.

Quartz movements are not subject to constant mechanical force like mechanical movements are. Seiko innovated the use of plastic gear trains in quartz movements as far back as the 1970s. Not only are they cheaper to make, but are likely to last longer than metal wheels thanks to being self lubricating and slower to wear.

Similar conditions apply to a mechanical escapement, which is far enough down the gear train to have only a small amount of constant force. Pivots are still metal so the only contact the plastic parts make is in the escapement motion itself. This is the part of the movement subject to the most friction, and plastic can be a more optimized material for that purpose than metal, which shows wear after constant rubbing against corundum. It's early days still, but so far 10 years of use seems to have gone well. Other manufacturers are starting to use silicon for the same purpose with good results.

Ultimately it depends on whether you find appeal in tradition or innovation. Thankfully there are products to satisfy both.

None of this is on topic for the H-10 so, again, you may want to read the many other threads about this.