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Here's the thing, though, Sean. For most of these Omega bezel alignment problems, it's the assembly that's not centered. This is easily fixed with a new ten dollar click spring.

I applaud you putting that information out here, and I'm assuming it applies to bezels beyond Omega. A ten dollar click spring is a whole lot better than a 10-20% cut in sale price as a used piece.
 

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D

I disagree with your assessment that the majority of issues is the result of a bezel misalignment. Especially on a new watch.

I stand by the belief that 90-95% of the misalignments are the result of a bezel INSERT misalignment which is easy to fix and the issue most people have or notice. Inserts are set by hand and have no locating points to make sure they are placed in the proper location. Bezels though do and with a six sigma program (which I believe swatch uses) these issues would be unacceptable with constant bezel misalignment.

Reason being you have a silver arrow pointing directly at a line. If that is off you notice it. Same issue with chrono hands that don't point to 0 when not in use.
 

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D

I disagree with your assessment that the majority of issues is the result of a bezel misalignment. Especially on a new watch.

I stand by the belief that 90-95% of the misalignments are the result of a bezel INSERT misalignment which is easy to fix and the issue most people have or notice. Inserts are set by hand and have no locating points to make sure they are placed in the proper location. Bezels though do and with a six sigma program (which I believe swatch uses) these issues would be unacceptable with constant bezel misalignment.

Reason being you have a silver arrow pointing directly at a line. If that is off you notice it. Same issue with chrono hands that don't point to 0 when not in use.

John,

I've personally re-aligned six or seven Seamaster bezel assemblies, and all of them were done by installing a brand new click spring only. Not a single one had a off center bezel insert. Also, when I first noticed the off center alignment issue on my first PO, I went into several ADs and boutiques here in town and examined pretty much each and every watch they had. While, unfortunately many of them did have slightly off center entire bezel assemblies, not a single one had an off center bezel insert. Whenever I go to any AD or boutique now, just to browse or to pick up parts, I always look at the Seamaster diver's watches. The first thing I zero in on is the bezel alignment. I've personally never seen a single bezel insert that was off center.

While I can believe mis-aligned bezel inserts must and do exist, I don't think they're the main cause of these mis-alignments at all. Therefore, in my opinion, which is based on my experience, I do not believe these bezel inserts come mis-aligned from the factory very often, and certainly not 90-95% of the time. I'm willing to bet if we polled all the members here, we'd find far more mis-alignments caused by worn out or badly adjusted click springs than by off center bezel inserts.

I've written all I know, and all I can, about the subject now, so you'll excuse me while I respectfully bow out now. Thanks.
 

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D

I disagree with your assessment that the majority of issues is the result of a bezel misalignment. Especially on a new watch.

I stand by the belief that 90-95% of the misalignments are the result of a bezel INSERT misalignment which is easy to fix and the issue most people have or notice. Inserts are set by hand and have no locating points to make sure they are placed in the proper location. Bezels though do and with a six sigma program (which I believe swatch uses) these issues would be unacceptable with constant bezel misalignment.

Reason being you have a silver arrow pointing directly at a line. If that is off you notice it. Same issue with chrono hands that don't point to 0 when not in use.

Having assembled and/or re-aligned several hundred assemblies of this type, as well as having received hundreds of pre-assembed bezel/inserts, I can't agree more.
 

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Having assembled and/or re-aligned several hundred assemblies of this type, as well as having received hundreds of pre-assembed bezel/inserts, I can't agree more.
Right. Several hundred OMEGA bezels? Or bezels with inserts that are actually made to be adjustable? Exactly. While one can force the insert free on an Omega bezel assembly, they're hardly meant to be adjustable.
 

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Right. Several hundred OMEGA bezels? Or bezels with inserts that are actually made to be adjustable? Exactly. While one can force the insert free on an Omega bezel assembly, they're hardly meant to be adjustable.

This type of assembly is used by many companies, and not only Omega. No bezel/insert assembly is "meant" to be taken apart or adjustable, especially considering many companies use an industrial adhesive which can be a PITA to unstick without ruining an insert. The fact is though, sometimes it's necessary.

P.S..I thought I read this a few posts back :-s
I've written all I know, and all I can, about the subject now, so you'll excuse me while I respectfully bow out now. Thanks.
Good job.;-)
 

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Discussion Starter #128
Well guys an update on this: I have to commend Jim @ DCJewelers.com, a forum favorite AD. I received the first one on a Friday, called him on a Monday, and he had a brand new one out to me by today. The new one is dead center on bezel alignment. That is fantastic service if you ask me.

Thanks to the forum members who referred him to me.
 

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Right. Several hundred OMEGA bezels? Or bezels with inserts that are actually made to be adjustable? Exactly. While one can force the insert free on an Omega bezel assembly, they're hardly meant to be adjustable.
D,

The only insert easier to adjust then an Omega is a Rolex. All other brands I have ever had used either glue or tape to assist in the inserts staying in place. Reason? To maintain a lower price point, they maintain lower quality standards which in turn means that they maintain lower tolerance requirements.

The difference though is that Rolex in the past only had one diameter to maintain tolerance requirements to (the outer edge). Omega on the other hand took it a step further and maintain a tolerance requirement on 2 surfaces. The outer edge and the inner lip. So, with the added complexity of making sure they are able to maintain these two tolerance requirements to maintain a tight press fit insert to bezel combination through machine production, they are not able to maintain the same tolerance requirements for the bezel to clickspring to case machine production? I'm sorry but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Something like an insert being press fit into a bezel is done with either a tool or by hand. Either way though, the insert is placed on the bezel by hand and requires a human to determine what is the perfect location. A bezel being placed onto a case requires only the click spring. A piece that is machine produced to maintain a determined tolerance requirement. No human orientation is necessary just place and press.

How can you come to the conclusion that the easiest and most likely issue with insert misalignment isn't in fact the issue and it is the more expensive and costly way from a consumer relations, manufacturing, and after sales service point of view? I'm interested in the reasons.
 

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John, I have much respect for you, and I consider you a friend, so I wanted to reply to your post, even though I honestly feel I've expressed my views here very clearly, and more than once already.

I'll leave you, and this thread, with this question: Do you really think that the OP's bezel insert is off? By the amount it would have to be, to be the sole, or even the main reason the alignment is off center? It looks pretty much dead-on straight to me. It looks pretty close to being perfectly aligned with the teeth of the coin edging to me. This means that the main reason for the mis-alignment is the click spring, and its imperfectly adjusted tab heights.

photo.JPG

photo-1.JPG


Thanks again for the discussion. It's always nice to see you posting. :-!
 

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To me that is an insert alignment issue, not a bezel issue.

I'm thinking you are seeing insert issues as an entire assembly issue considering the information you have been given. While by an Omega standpoint this is correct I guess, :think:, to me, it is making a situation more complex then necessary.

So let's try a little test shall we? Below are four situations for a Planet Ocean and a SMP. For each of these, you have the following issues.
  • There is a bezel assembly misalignment (bezel and insert)
  • There is a bezel insert misalignment
  • There is a bezel misalginment
  • There is no misalignment
Question: Can you determine which is which? For those that are out of alignment, I tweaked them to be around 1/4 second out which is what it would normally be for someone to have a problem with it.




 

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John, there's really no need for the demonstration. Like you, I am also an industrial designer, and I therefore also make my living studying minute details. I fully understand the differences between the four scenarios. When have I ever demonstrated that I didn't understand the differences?

My question to you is, how are you not seeing that the OP's bezel insert itself is NOT out of alignment with the bezel body that houses it? I have quoted here the scenario, of the four you outlined, that best describes the OP's watch:

• There is a bezel assembly misalignment (bezel and insert)
Even if it was, say an eighth, or a tenth of a mm off (which I am not saying it necessarily is; it's too hard to tell, with exactitude, from any photograph), that minuscule bit would definitely, certainly not be enough to account for the larger distance that the entire bezel assembly (that's bezel body plus the bezel insert) is off from center, as evidenced by the OP's first photo in my post.

It's quite clear to me that the bezel insert is — if not dead-on — then very, very close to being perfectly aligned with the coin edging of the bezel body. From everything I can see, no alignment issues with the OP's Planet Ocean are caused by the bezel insert itself.

I stand by my assertion that the OP's entire bezel assembly was off from center, and not the bezel insert itself. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words....


Here are the OP's original photos again, for extra clarity:

photo.JPG

photo-1.JPG





To me that is an insert alignment issue, not a bezel issue.

I'm thinking you are seeing insert issues as an entire assembly issue considering the information you have been given. While by an Omega standpoint this is correct I guess, :think:, to me, it is making a situation more complex then necessary.

So let's try a little test shall we? Below are four situations for a Planet Ocean and a SMP. For each of these, you have the following issues.
  • There is a bezel assembly misalignment (bezel and insert)
  • There is a bezel insert misalignment
  • There is a bezel misalginment
  • There is no misalignment
Question: Can you determine which is which? For those that are out of alignment, I tweaked them to be around 1/4 second out which is what it would normally be for someone to have a problem with it.
 

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John,

These are details I took from the OP's two original photos.

• The red lines show the centerline, and where proper alignment would be.
• The yellow lines show the actual alignment of the bezel assembly.


(Here, the bezel assembly sits to the right of the centerline.)

OP Bezel Bad 01 (detail).jpg

(Here, the bezel assembly sits to the left of the centerline.)
OP Bezel Bad 02 (detail).jpg


As you can see, the bezel insert is aligned well with the bezel body and coin edging that houses it. They together, as a unit, are off center and mis-aligned.

Thanks. |>


 

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Another option (while less common, but I'll provide a picture example) is that it's a case issue. If the hole for the anchoring pin is mis-drilled, even by a fraction of a mm, again, the result is a misaligned bezel. This does happen with a percentage of cases. What variable during manufacture causes this to happen? I'm not sure, but I can enquire with one of the case companies here. There are any number of reasons that a bezel may be misaligned...0f course we all hope that most are caught be QC. The most commonly seen and easily corrrected, as John has agreed, is a misaligned insert which is easy to correct with minimal messing around with the case and bezel assemblies.
 

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Well guys an update on this: I have to commend Jim @ DCJewelers.com, a forum favorite AD. I received the first one on a Friday, called him on a Monday, and he had a brand new one out to me by today. The new one is dead center on bezel alignment. That is fantastic service if you ask me.

Thanks to the forum members who referred him to me.
Glad to hear that things turned out well for you, and so quickly. :-!
 

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Dixan,

I had originally started to do the same thing with the OP poster's pictures but realized that the photos were providing inconclusive information. Reason I say this is to reference the 5 minute hash in the insert. That hash looks misaligned to the right of the coinedge in the bezel and thus if shifted to line up correctly, it will cause the triangle to line up with the red line in the first photo.

Yet in the 2nd photo, the 5 minute hash looks as though it is supposed to line up with the valley of the bezel. If it is shifted to the right, it will cause the triangle to line up with the red line again.

As a side note D,

If you look at the photos I provided of the PO, that image is from the Omega website. The one marked #4 is the actual image with no alteration. I don't see a coin edge that lines up perfectly with the dial in that image do you? The point though, which is more important? The coin edge or hte tip of the triangle at the 12 indicator which points directly to a spot on the dial? I personally feel that a bezel assembly misalignment is a moot point and a non-issue as it can easily be fixed through adjustment without parts replacement but that's me.

I know we are both ID trained but I wouldn't call myself a pure ID anymore. I am more concerned with VA/VE and manufacturing issues now and thus the reasons for my counterpoints to your design related arguments. While I see and can understand them from a designer's point of view, from a production point of view, as stated, it's a small issue if I can pop an insert and adjust it to save the cost of a part.

Now Jake B brings up a good point though that it could easily be a hole drilling issue in the case. That would be something to consider.

Yet, back to the whole point from a manufacturing and QC standpoint.....Omega obviously doesn't view what Dixan calls a bezel misalignment as a defect in manufacturing due to the Six Sigma practices (which I read somewhere they practice). So as a result, these are inconsequential concerns to them and it makes sense for them to just say to replace the spring to fix the issue as it probably takes less time to do it that way and the placebo effect will mean that a consumer who has an issue with this will accept it if they had a part replaced.

John,

These are details I took from the OP's two original photos.

• The red lines show the centerline, and proper alignment.
• The yellow lines show the actual alignment of the bezel assembly.


(Here, the bezel assembly sits to the right of the centerline.)

View attachment 559316

(Here, the bezel assembly sits to the left of the centerline.)
View attachment 559317


As you can see, the bezel insert is aligned well with the bezel body and coin edging that houses it. They together, are off center and mis-aligned.

Thanks. |>


 

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Well guys an update on this: I have to commend Jim @ DCJewelers.com, a forum favorite AD. I received the first one on a Friday, called him on a Monday, and he had a brand new one out to me by today. The new one is dead center on bezel alignment. That is fantastic service if you ask me.

Thanks to the forum members who referred him to me.
Good to hear Jim took good care of you. Now you can finally fully enjoy your new PO! Congrats. Please post photos, anytime. |>
 

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As promised, I've taken the time to photograph an example of a mis-drilled anchoring pin hole. Although both photos are of the exact same model of case, the one on the left is a satin finish, and the only one I could find with an error is brushed finish which explains the slight difference in appearance.



If we were to accept the first one as correct and normal, and assembled all of our pre-made bezel assemblies to align with this case, then if any of those correct assemblies were placed on the 2nd case with the red arrows and mis-drilled holes, it would not line up. This is actually a rather severe case shown here. In some cases it's only off by a hair, and may be difficult even for someone doing QC to catch by eye.
 

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As promised, I've taken the time to photograph an example of a mis-drilled anchoring pin hole. Although both photos are of the exact same model of case, the one on the left is a satin finish, and the only one I could find with an error is brushed finish which explains the slight difference in appearance.



If we were to accept the first one as correct and normal, and assembled all of our pre-made bezel assemblies to align with this case, then if any of those correct assemblies were placed on the 2nd case with the red arrows and mis-drilled holes, it would not line up. This is actually a rather severe case shown here. In some cases it's only off by a hair, and may be difficult even for someone doing QC to catch by eye.

Lol. I wasn't going to reply to this thread again, but after seeing this post, I felt compelled to do so. The location of the single hole for the downward facing tab that anchors the click spring into the click spring groove, at least on Omega watches, has ZERO BEARING on alignment issues. How are you even coming to this conclusion??? You could locate that hole anywhere on the perimeter and it would make NO DIFFERENCE to the alignment of the bezel. Think about it. The thing ROTATES. There is no real "up" or "down," or any other "proper" location for the little click spring anchoring tab.

Also, the distance from this hole that each of the three click spring "click tabs" is, is also COMLETELY IRRELEVANT. As long as they are pretty much evenly spaced around the perimeter (meaning each of the three tabs is located a third of the way around), the bezel assembly will be properly supported and balanced.

I think you have some seriously flawed ideas about how these watch cases and bezel assemblies are designed and made....
 

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Lol. I wasn't going to reply to this thread again, but after seeing this post, I felt compelled to do so. The location of the single hole for the downward facing tab that anchors the click spring into the click spring groove, at least on Omega watches, has ZERO BEARING on alignment issues. How are you even coming to this conclusion??? You could locate that hole anywhere on the perimeter and it would make NO DIFFERENCE to the alignment of the bezel. Think about it. The thing ROTATES. There is no real "up" or "down," or any other "proper" location for the little click spring anchoring tab.

Also, the distance from this hole that each of the three click spring "click tabs" is, is also COMLETELY IRRELEVANT. As long as they are pretty much evenly spaced around the perimeter (meaning each of the three tabs is located a third of the way around), the bezel assembly will be properly supported and balanced.

I think you have some seriously flawed ideas about how these watch cases and bezel assemblies are designed and made....
Wrong. The resting position of the click ring tabs which stop the bezel when trying to rotate it clockwise are in DIRECT relation to this hole and the pin that sits in it. Would you like me to draw you a diagram so you can clearer understand, Dixan?

If the hole is off, the click ring is off, and the pre-assembled bezel sits off...Full stop.

How many times are you gonna "bow out" of this thread anyways?
 
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