WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner

161 - 174 of 174 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,114 Posts
ddatta, sorry for the confusion. What I meant by "It's a rotating piece," was that the bezel assembly itself rotates, obviously, and that there is no one "most important" location along the click spring/bezel assembly's travel, as Jake would have you believe. That the hole is at 12 o'clock really means nothing.

Well, yeah, I guess it's important for the tabs to be always at the decided upon locations, but mainly for production reasons, really. I mean, they're not going to make three different click springs, with three different locations for the tabs. They are where they are now. Their current, decided-by-Omega locations still mean nothing, in terms of having any influence on bezel assembly alignment.

As long as the bezel insert is sitting nice and "square" with the bezel body, and the resulting bezel assembly (insert + body) is one "good to go" piece, then the only thing that will affect final bezel assembly alignment is the click spring tab heights.
Now, I must revert to my original questions where I said that it appears that the location of the hole is important. Obviously after having finalised designs etc. Once the location is decided and other components built for this location then if the hole is displaced then the click ring as well as the bezel will also get displaced?

Is that right?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,684 Posts
Holy geez...Talk about going in circles. How about a response to the drawing I provided you along with the question attached? It's not about where the hole is placed around the case/dial, it's whether it's place in correct relation to the rest of the parts. If it's mis-drilled (as in the example I showed you) by a fraction of an mm, and not by an entire "click", the the bezel sits crooked. That's all I'm saying. It is one of many possible causes of bezel mis-alignment. I'm not sure why you seem so insistent that this is not the case. I assure you it is. There is nothing to "dispell". It is fact.
As I said, feel free to believe what you want. You're incorrect, however.

And before you give me a hard time about replying again, I have shared forum time with ddatta for several years. He asked me a few questions, and I wanted to answer them. Hope that's okay with you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,684 Posts
Now, I must revert to my original questions where I said that it appears that the location of the hole is important. Obviously after having finalised designs etc. Once the location is decided and other components built for this location then if the hole is displaced then the click ring as well as the bezel will also get displaced?

Is that right?
That's not right, ddatta. Can you explain to me why you think the precision with which the hole is drilled at 12 o'clock has any bearing whatsoever on bezel assembly alignment? It simply doesn't affect bezel assembly alignment in any way. You can go and drill a second hole, right now, at say, 11 o'clock, pop the click spring in, pop the bezel assembly on, and it would look and function exactly the same as if the hole were at 12 o'clock.

Think about it: Let's say you turn your bezel, right now, thirty clicks to the 9 o'clock position. Is it suddenly out of alignment? So, let's say you drill a new hole at 3 o'clock. Now, with the click spring anchoring tab seated at the hole at 3 o'clock, when you turn the bezel thirty clicks to 12 o'clock, is it in any way suddenly mis-aligned?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,114 Posts
That's not right, ddatta. Can you explain to me why you think the precision with which the hole is drilled at 12 o'clock has any bearing whatsoever on bezel assembly alignment? It simply doesn't affect bezel assembly alignment in any way. You can go and drill a second hole, right now, at say, 11 o'clock, pop the click spring in, pop the bezel assembly on, and it would look and function exactly the same as if the hole were at 12 o'clock.
But if I drilled a hole midway between where two clicks need to have it, then? Would not the click also shift by a half?

Again, using the same components for which the original position was determined.

Let us say that the clicks are 3deg apart. If I drill a whole that is 1deg off from its determined location then wouldn't the entire assembly also shift by 1deg?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
821 Posts
Dixan,

In this case my friend I'm gonna have to say you are incorrect.

If the click spring lock hole (what I'll call it) is designed to be normally located at 6:35 relative to the dial then the bezel if properly aligned. As the bezel has 120 slots in it, that would in turn mean that the 3 tabs would have to be either located at a full second position or in a 1/2 second position for the bezel to be properly aligned.

If the click spring lock hole is misdrilled so it sits at the 06:35.500 position, yes, the bezel will still be in alignment. However, if the hole is misdrilled at any point between 06:35.000 and 06:35.500 you will have a misaligned bezel.

Seeing as the majority of "off" bezels due to this alignment issue falls between the 11:59.500-12:00.000 and 12:00.000-12:00.500 I will say that it could be a hole issue since we aren't talking about a hell of a lot of movement. Something that could VERy easily be within the tolerance range.

Also, my bezel is now trully bi-directional ;-) by the old-school beliefs of Rolex which is what I prefer. They used the same "friction" turning bi-directional bezel with an inner retaining spring which is what my click spring has now become. :-!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,684 Posts
But if I drilled a hole midway between where two clicks need to have it, then? Would not the click also shift by a half?

Again, using the same components for which the original position was determined.
Yes. I agree if the hole was mis-drilled so that it sat in between two of the 120 clicks, then a standard click spring, right out the package, would indeed be a little bit off — half a click, to be precise. In that case, it would be dialed in by adjusting the click spring tab heights. As we discussed earlier, there are likely not many (I said maybe one in ten thousand?) Omega cases that might have this problem. To say that the reason why two or three per ten Omega diver's watches (again, this is just the ratio I saw when I went to examine them) have the bezel assembly alignment slightly off center is because their cases' click spring anchoring holes were drilled in between clicks would be inaccurate.

I agree that it is absolutely possible that this could happen, but in practice, most of the POs and SMPs that we see that have mis-aligned bezel assemblies are off center because of less than ideal click spring heights.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,684 Posts
Dixan,

In this case my friend I'm gonna have to say you are incorrect.

If the click spring lock hole (what I'll call it) is designed to be normally located at 6:35 relative to the dial then the bezel if properly aligned. As the bezel has 120 slots in it, that would in turn mean that the 3 tabs would have to be either located at a full second position or in a 1/2 second position for the bezel to be properly aligned.

If the click spring lock hole is misdrilled so it sits at the 06:35.500 position, yes, the bezel will still be in alignment. However, if the hole is misdrilled at any point between 06:35.000 and 06:35.500 you will have a misaligned bezel.

Seeing as the majority of "off" bezels due to this alignment issue falls between the 11:59.500-12:00.000 and 12:00.000-12:00.500 I will say that it could be a hole issue since we aren't talking about a hell of a lot of movement. Something that could VERy easily be within the tolerance range.

Also, my bezel is now trully bi-directional ;-) by the old-school beliefs of Rolex which is what I prefer. They used the same "friction" turning bi-directional bezel with an inner retaining spring which is what my click spring has now become. :-!

Yes, John, please see my latest post where I concede that it could happen. I also agreed earlier and made a general estimate of something like "maybe one in ten thousand" Omega cases. Do you really think that most of the bezel assembly mis-alignments are due to badly made Omega watch cases? Or is it far, far more likely that it's the thin, pliable, easily adjusted click spring's tabs that are usually responsible for the minute mis-alignment? All of the people I know at Omega seem to think it's the click spring that's responsible. Also, yesterday you said 90-95% of mis-alignments were due to bezel inserts being off center. Now you're saying that it's the holes in the cases?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,114 Posts
Yes. I agree if the hole was mis-drilled so that it sat in between two of the 120 clicks, then a standard click spring, right out the package, would indeed be a little bit off — half a click, to be precise. In that case, it would be dialed in by adjusting the click spring tab heights. As we discussed earlier, there are likely not many (I said maybe one in ten thousand?) Omega cases that might have this problem. To say that the reason why two or three per ten Omega diver's watches (again, this is just the ratio I saw when I went to examine them) have the bezel assembly alignment slightly off center is because their cases' click spring anchoring holes were drilled in between clicks would be inaccurate.

I agree that it is absolutely possible that this could happen, but in practice, most of the POs and SMPs that we see that have mis-aligned bezel assemblies are off center because of less than ideal click spring heights.
hmm... Click spring height is another chapter which may not really be the best way to correct this. Having taken the bezel apart I would say that popping the insert and repositioning it is a more elegant solution. Remember, this is after it has been determined that the fault is due to a mis-drilled hole. If that is the case then it is better not to tamper with the height of the innocent tabs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,684 Posts
...and, as you mentioned before, likely fixed to a customer's satisfaction by simply re-setting the bezel ring.
No, any such anomalies would be fixed by adjusting the click spring's tab heights. Or trying out several brand new click springs until one dialed in the right amount of adjustment.

EDIT: I'm talking about what Omega would do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,684 Posts
hmm... Click spring height is another chapter which may not really be the best way to correct this. Having taken the bezel apart I would say that popping the insert and repositioning it is a more elegant solution. Remember, this is after it has been determined that the fault is due to a mis-drilled hole. If that is the case then it is better not to tamper with the height of the innocent tabs.
My watchmaker friends at Omega told me they would never adjust the bezel insert within a bezel. As John has proven, it can be done, if you wish to do it on your own, but it's definitely not an official Omega sanctioned fix. Plus, with bezels such as the SMP's scalloped edge bezel and the first gen PO XL's bezel, adjusting the bezel insert would throw off the balance with the bezel edges. And yes, that's if there's a mis-drilled hole. How many Omega watch cases do you think really are mis-drilled? I'd say very, very few. Likely far fewer than mis-adjusted click springs, anyway.

Also, ddatta, that is the way Omega deals with mis-aligned bezels. I've done it myself several times, with great results. Take a brand new click spring (they come pre-adjusted from the factory, btw), pop it in, and more times than not, you're good to go. A couple of times it took a few click springs to find the right alignment, which also says that brand new click springs vary very slightly among themselves as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
821 Posts
I agree that it is absolutely possible that this could happen, but in practice, most of the POs and SMPs that we see that have mis-aligned bezel assemblies are off center because of less than ideal click spring heights.
And this is where you and I disagree my friend. :) Reason?

I believe the bezel assemblies are within the tolerance requirements of the Omega QC teams. If this is the case, and you are seeing a large portion of "off" inserts at the dealer, I see this as them determining it as a non-issue. As a result, their standard decision is to replace the entire click spring or the assembly for quickness sake.

Yet, think about what you are saying the true issue is faulty is for a second....... click springs. On BRAND NEW watches. Watches that shouldn't have ANY defects, you are saying a large percentage you have seen at AD's have a bad part in them. Does this honestly make a lot of sense to you?

Afterall, we are talking about a tolerance range of literally less then half a second........So on a 1.5" bezel (around the outer edge), that is a circumference measurement of: C=((1.5π/120)/2)(25.4)=.49877mm

Again, .49877mm distance from 12:00.000 to 12:00.2500. Doesn't seem like a lot but boy when you have a triangle tip pointing at a line, it really is noticeable. How can you say it is in fact a bezel assembly misalignment when we are talking about a tolerance like that and not just the fact that when Johann Watchmaker at Omega was installing the insert, he didn't line it up perfectly?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,684 Posts
Yet, think about what you are saying the true issue is faulty is for a second....... click springs. On BRAND NEW watches. Watches that shouldn't have ANY defects, you are saying a large percentage you have seen at AD's have a bad part in them. Does this honestly make a lot of sense to you?
Yes, it makes perfect sense to me, and here are a couple of reasons why (mainly for the first reason):

• Let's re-examine the click spring itself. Look at the tabs. They were part of the click spring body itself, and then they were bent upwards and down, to form an actually pretty complex shape. You have to admit, there's a good amount of variance that likely exists among brand new click springs. My bet is that these tabs are more likely to be off by a little than bezel inserts are likely to be mis-aligned, or watch cases badly drilled.

SMPBezelSprings05.jpg

SMPBezelSprings04.jpg

• Click springs can also be fairly easily damaged by counter-rotating. I actually broke one of mine on my first PO just by accidentally counter-rotating it one afternoon. One of the tabs cracked half way off because it was pushed backwards. I fully admit I sometimes get a bit neurotic and mess around with my bezels too much, rotating them around a lot, etc. It's entirely possible that somewhere from QC to salesperson, some of these bezels get rotated in the wrong direction. I'm not saying this likely happens a lot, but it's certainly not impossible.

BTW, as I wrote last night, I have yet to see one out-of-alignment bezel insert on a new Omega. IDK, perhaps you have, and I agree that there are likely some out there that are mis-aligned, but I definitely don't think that 90-95% of the problem alignments are caused by off center inserts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Came here using the Google looking for "my Omega Seamaster bezel is misaligned". Was not disappointed. I have learned a tremendous amount about something I didn't think I would ever learn about. And I think I'll be taking my watch back to my AD to see if they can make the adjustment. It appears to be a hotly debated matter of perspective, but I believe mine is the spring issue, not the insert issue.

The only odd thing to me is that everything seems to line up fine on the lower half of the watch but not on the upper half. Same is true if I rotate the bezel. The triangle lines up perfectly when rotated to 6 o'clock.

DSCF2072.jpg
 
161 - 174 of 174 Posts
Top