[hans_jorgen_1968]

Hi guys

I have been reading your discussion on the calibre 560 with great interest.

I have over the last year or so aquired some examples of the calibre 560.

There are some questions I can not find any answers on.


This is the list of watches bearing the calibre 560 (what I can read and found out)

Vari ants
1 KL6610 Omega Seamaster DeVille14K solid gold
2a KL6068 Omega Seamaster DeVille14K. Gold Bezel/S.S. BACK
2b KL6068 Omega Seamaster14K. Gold Bezel/S.S. BACK
3a KL6292 Omega Seamaster DeVille14K. Gold Filled
3b KL6292 Omega Seamaster DeVille14K. Gold Filled, exhibition back (plexiglas)
4a KL6303 Omega Seamaster14K. Gold Filled
4b KL6303 Omega Seamaster Calendar14K. Gold Filled
5a KL6312 Omega Automatic10 karat gold filled bezel and lugs with a ST/ST case back
5b KL 6312H As KL6312 + gold filled bracelet
6 166.020 Omega Seamaster DeVilleSteel
7 166.002 Omega AutomaticSteel, none date version possible none Seamaster on dial
8 KL6019 Omega GeneveGold filled top, Steel Back
9 KL6020 Omega GeneveSteel
10 KL6021 Omega GeneveGold filled top, Steel Back
11 KL6024 Omega GeneveDay-date and steel case
12 6165B Omega DynamicUS variant of 166.0039
13 6196 Omega DynamicUS variant of 166.0039



# 1 KL6068
There seem to exist at least two variants of the KL6068. One being a Seamaster and one beeing the Seamster De Ville. Is this due to that the "de Ville" name was invented by Norman M. Morris, N.Y.??

# 2 KL6292, exhibition back.
My specimen looks axactly like in Desmonds article, but have seen on the ebay a version with nicer dial..? Refurbished? As I do not think they keep the humidity/water out so nice for so many years.
Is the exhibition back a KL6292 or actually a KL6303?

# 3 KL6303
There seems to exist 2 dial variants. A Seamaster and a Seamaster Calendar (I have both). Is this just another dial variant?

# 4 KL6292 + KL6303
Why have two different 14k versions?
Due to gold thickness?
Year of introduction? (1962 + 1965 I believe).
Most KL6292 I have seen have the markes, were both my KL6303 have the 6-9-12 on the dial..? But than again my exhibition back which I believe is a KL6292 have the 6-9-12 as well..?

# 5 KL 6019 + KL 6021
These watches are still missing in my collection. However, what is the difference on the watches, when they both are describes as: Gold filled top, Steel back. Are we talking 10k + 14k?

# 6165B + 6196 (Omega Dynamic)
These watches do I also miss
Both US variants of the 166.0039. But what are the differrences on these two watches?

 

[gatorcpa]

# 1 KL6068
There seem to exist at least two variants of the KL6068. One being a Seamaster and one beeing the Seamster De Ville. Is this due to that the "de Ville" name was invented by Norman M. Morris, N.Y.??

I believe you are correct on that point. Although some some Seamaster DeVilles were Swiss-cased and possibly sold in other countries after the success of the monocoque cased versions here in the USA.

# 2 KL6292, exhibition back.
My specimen looks axactly like in Desmonds article, but have seen on the ebay a version with nicer dial..? Refurbished? As I do not think they keep the humidity/water out so nice for so many years.
Is the exhibition back a KL6292 or actually a KL6303?

I think the main difference between these two references is the case manufacturer. KL6292 = Ross and KL6303 - "J" (not sure of the full name - edit found it - Jonell Watch Case Co). Since the exhibition back replaces the caseback where the manufacturer's name may be found, I'm not sure it's possible to know the answer for sure. Here's a hypothesis which may or may not be correct. The Ross cases generally (but not always) have hallmarks on the outside of the case, between the lugs. The few of these I've seen online always have the outside hallmarks, which would indicate a KL6292.

Do your examples have the "14K Gold Filled" engraving between the upper lugs?

# 3 KL6303
There seems to exist 2 dial variants. A Seamaster and a Seamaster Calendar (I have both). Is this just another dial variant?

Don't know about this, never seen a Seamaster Calendar version. My guess is that it's a dial variant as you suggest.

# 4 KL6292 + KL6303
Why have two different 14k versions?
Due to gold thickness?
Year of introduction? (1962 + 1965 I believe).
Most KL6292 I have seen have the markes, were both my KL6303 have the 6-9-12 on the dial..? But than again my exhibition back which I believe is a KL6292 have the 6-9-12 as well..?

See #2 above, I think the difference is related to the case manufacturers as well as the introduction dates. Most Omega case references had numerous dial variants, so it's difficult to know for sure.

# 5 KL 6019 + KL 6021
These watches are still missing in my collection. However, what is the difference on the watches, when they both are describes as: Gold filled top, Steel back. Are we talking 10k + 14k?

Not sure anyone knows the answer to this one. Desmond....help! ;-)

# 6165B + 6196 (Omega Dynamic)
These watches do I also miss
Both US variants of the 166.0039. But what are the differrences on these two watches?

I'm not sure anyone has actually seen either of these references, although they've been confirmed by Omega as having existed.

I hope that I've been able to help unravel the mysteries a little bit. I'm sure Desmond will be along soon to add some of his vast knowledge on this subject.

In the meanwhile, here's a picture (from the seller) of my newly acquired KL6312 with a steel screwback case.

I've since polished up the crystal to remove the scratches and gently polished the case. Looks almost like a new watch now.

Take care and enjoy those Omegas, :-!
gatorcpa

 

[joe band]

In the meanwhile, here's a picture (from the seller) of my newly acquired KL6312 with a steel screwback case.

I've since polished up the crystal to remove the scratches and gently polished the case. Looks almost like a new watch now.

Take care and enjoy those Omegas, :-!
gatorcpa

this has the same case and hands as my KL6312, but mine has the guilloche dial. i'm intrigued by the supposed rarity of this being chosen to have made up as a company watch. i would have thought they would have picked a standard, off the shelf watch. enjoy that beauty.

 

[joe band]

double post

 

[hans_jorgen_1968]

Hi Gatorcpa

That Conoco variant is really a beauty ;-)
Never seen any like that or with logo from other companies. Do they exist from other companies?

Another version I have never ever seen is the stainless without date.. I have seen many with dates, but none without.
(7 166.002 Omega AutomaticSteel, none date version possible none Seamaster on dial)

My Exhibition back should than probably be a KL6292, as I can read the "14K Gold Filled" engraving between the upper lugs.

I have also attached a picture on the dialvariant? KL6303 Calendar

BR Hans

 

[gatorcpa]

Hi Gatorcpa

That Conoco variant is really a beauty ;-)
Never seen any like that or with logo from other companies. Do they exist from other companies?

The one on the Omega Vintage Database listing for KM6292 also has a corporate logo.

This dial is very similar to mine, main difference being the date feature. The KL6312 is not a Seamaster model. It has a plain steel back, so it's ideal for award engraving. Norman Morris, Inc. actively marketed Omegas to corporate gift departments, so I suspect there are many more logo dials out there.

Another version I have never ever seen is the stainless without date.. I have seen many with dates, but none without.
(7 166.002 Omega AutomaticSteel, none date version possible none Seamaster on dial)

The movement for this one would be a cal. 550, not a 560. I don't know if production was as limited for the caliber 550. Also, there was some confusion in the recent Omega book regarding the 166.020 (166.0020 on the OVD) case reference. I can't recall the issue right now, but I think Desmond discussed it in his article on the cal 560's.

http://www.snapdrive.net/files/476678/Unearthed Omega Calibre 560 Rarities.pdf

Exhibition back should than probably be a KL6292, as I can read the "14K Gold Filled" engraving between the upper lugs.

I agree. Did you just recently purchase that example? Looks very much like one I bid on. Glad to see it went to a good home.

I have also attached a picture on the dial variant? KL6303 Calendar

The picture is too small to say for sure, but I think that your KL6303 may have been redialled with a die from the original Seamaster Calendar watches of the early to mid 1950's.

Take care,
gatorcpa

 

[hans_jorgen_1968]

I have seen some of the company Omegas, but (to my knowledge at least) not seen any with a 560 calibre. But you are right, the KL6312 is perfect for the engraving.

I trust the exhibition back found a good new home here in Denmark ;-)
So you are the one that moved me to these high bids ;-). The bid ended at my max less 2 USD...!

I am at the Climate Meeting in Copenhagen this week, but could post a picture of the 6303 Calender dial next week

BR Hans

 

[joe band]

for anyone looking, here's a seamaster deville with the 560 movement for sale.

http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-CAL-560-OM...ristwatches?hash=item4ced6af832#ht_902wt_1144

 

[gatorcpa]

for any looking, here's a seamaster deville with the 560 movement for sale.

There's another one for sale on another forum, looks to be a KL6312 with a black dial. First one I've seen like this:

Less than the opening bid on the eBay example.

Take care,
gatorcpa

 

[skull7272]

I have the (7 166.002 Omega AutomaticSteel, none date version possible none Seamaster on dial)from 1965. I no little about it but it has been in a draw for 30 years and it still runs and keeps perfect time. Does it have any special value? It was my father's watch...

 

[joe band]

here's a KL6312 listed on the 'bay. not an original crown, but otherwise looks pretty good. comparing it to mine the hour markers are just slightly different, as the quarter-hour markers are tapered, where mine are parallel. it has always struck me as odd that such a limited production model has such variety, but that is the spice of horology.

OMEGA! AUTOMATIC VINTAGE 1965 MENS DATE WATCH SWISS 560 - eBay (item 120675136229 end time Feb-01-11 19:21:14 PST)

 

[gatorcpa]

Crown looks fine to me. The Omega symbol is there. It is quite worn, though:



All in all, a pretty nice example that is still at a reasonable price.

On the issue of the "3,000" cal. 560 movements...I'm not so sure. There are a least a dozen watches with this movement on eBay at any point in time, and this doesn't include online sites. Seems to be a bit too common for there to have been only 3,000 made.

Maybe the figure refers only to those steel versions cased in Switzerland?

Just a skeptic, I guess,
gatorcpa

 

[ulackfocus]

On the issue of the "3,000" cal. 560 movements...I'm not so sure. There are a least a dozen watches with this movement on eBay at any point in time, and this doesn't include online sites. Seems to be a bit too common for there to have been only 3,000 made.

Maybe the figure refers only to those steel versions cased in Switzerland?

The 3,000 refers to the number of 560's used in Seamaster De Villes in the early to mid 60's. There were 10 different case references - 9 made in the US for Norman Morris (some plated, some gold filled, some solid gold) with movements imported from Bienne marked "unadjusted", and 1 stainless steel (the 166.020) made in Bienne with movements that were adjusted to 2 positions.

I'm sure there were plenty of other 560's used in different case references and models.

 

[joe band]

Crown looks fine to me. The Omega symbol is there. It is quite worn, though:

View attachment 382035

All in all, a pretty nice example that is still at a reasonable price.

you're right about that crown, i missed that completely, however it has a different shape and groove pattern compared with mine. i wonder if it is a replacement, or if just a different style.

On the issue of the "3,000" cal. 560 movements...I'm not so sure. There are a least a dozen watches with this movement on eBay at any point in time, and this doesn't include online sites. Seems to be a bit too common for there to have been only 3,000 made.

Maybe the figure refers only to those steel versions cased in Switzerland?

Just a skeptic, I guess,
gatorcpa

in re-reading an article on the cal 560 from omega.watchprosite.com: The calibre 560 was a 17 Jewel calibre only produced in 3000pcs for the US market. The calibre has been produced from 1959, but has been used in models for the US market mainlymarketed between 1963-1967 Serial numbers between 16-23 mill
i guess that the 3000 were just the ones imported to the US market.

 

[gatorcpa]

you're right about that crown, i missed that completely, however it has a different shape and groove pattern compared with mine. i wonder if it is a replacement, or if just a different style.

Looks the same as my KL6312, just really worn down. Probably original.

in re-reading an article on the cal 560 from omega.watchprosite.com: The calibre 560 was a 17 Jewel calibre only produced in 3000pcs for the US market. The calibre has been produced from 1959, but has been used in models for the US market mainlymarketed between 1963-1967 Serial numbers between 16-23 mill
i guess that the 3000 were just the ones imported to the US market.

I think what Dennis says makes a lot of sense. There are just too many of them for sale out there with all these different case references. Almost all are US export movements, as they have the "OXG" mark, as required by law. The display back and Dynamic versions are quite rare, but the 6312's are all over the web.

Take care,
gatorcpa

 

[joe band]

Looks the same as my KL6312, just really worn down. Probably original.

must be real worn down.

I think what Dennis says makes a lot of sense. There are just too many of them for sale out there with all these different case references. Almost all are US export movements, as they have the "OXG" mark, as required by law. The display back and Dynamic versions are quite rare, but the 6312's are all over the web.

Take care,
gatorcpa

i was under the impression that the KL6312 was the model number given only to the US model sold by norman morris. was it also sold in other countries? mine was purchased in the US in the late '60s.

 

[mondodec]

Hmm nice to see this thread start again, as I missed the original posts.

Several of us have approached the Omega Museum and asked the same question: I put it to John Diethelm and later re-queried it with Marco Richon before he retired (his English was a lot more fluent than John's) and on both occasions I was told that according to Omega records only 3000 pieces of the cal 560 were made - all designated for US consumption. I was also told that only the stainless steel 560 version 166.020 was made in Switzerland exlusively for the US market. (now of course parts were interchangeable with other calibres, but with the production of 3000 pieces, one would also assume that spare 560 train bridges were also produced.)

I've also had email exchanges on specific case numbers (BTW Gator your post explaining case numbers and case makers was excellent) and the message on numbers has been consistent. I got the impression that these 17 jewel Norman Morris watches (cal 560 et al, including cal 470) were produced in almost a cottage-industry type of way (my late NM source indicated so). NM was, apparently, hot on not having to carry too much of a financial burden with inventory, and it makes sense to me that these blue collar collections were produced in smaller batches, which I think explains the actual number of variants that were powered by the 560 movement.

I have received quite a number of queries about cal 560s from the sons or daughters of US dads that were either given these models or bought them in the 60s. Its the right time for generational change for a 40+ year old watch to be surfacing again, with original buyers increasingly falling off the perch.

While one could perceive that there were a lot of them out there, I think that the global internet market perhaps has assisted in skewing perceptions about rarity and indeed commonness, but say even if we saw over a period of 1 year a couple of dozen of these models in various case numbers, that leaves 2976 that we didnt see. An churn of less than 1% in twelve months would appear unreasonably low on the global vintage market.

Cheers

Desmond

 

[gatorcpa]

Hmm nice to see this thread start again, as I missed the original posts.

Several of us have approached the Omega Museum and asked the same question: I put it to John Diethelm and later re-queried it with Marco Richon before he retired (his English was a lot more fluent than John's) and on both occasions I was told that according to Omega records only 3000 pieces of the cal 560 were made - all designated for US consumption. I was also told that only the stainless steel 560 version 166.020 was made in Switzerland exlusively for the US market. (now of course parts were interchangeable with other calibres, but with the production of 3000 pieces, one would also assume that spare 560 train bridges were also produced.)

I've also had email exchanges on specific case numbers (BTW Gator your post explaining case numbers and case makers was excellent) and the message on numbers has been consistent. I got the impression that these 17 jewel Norman Morris watches (cal 560 et al, including cal 470) were produced in almost a cottage-industry type of way (my late NM source indicated so). NM was, apparently, hot on not having to carry too much of a financial burden with inventory, and it makes sense to me that these blue collar collections were produced in smaller batches, which I think explains the actual number of variants that were powered by the 560 movement.

I have received quite a number of queries about cal 560s from the sons or daughters of US dads that were either given these models or bought them in the 60s. Its the right time for generational change for a 40+ year old watch to be surfacing again, with original buyers increasingly falling off the perch.

While one could perceive that there were a lot of them out there, I think that the global internet market perhaps has assisted in skewing perceptions about rarity and indeed commonness, but say even if we saw over a period of 1 year a couple of dozen of these models in various case numbers, that leaves 2976 that we didnt see. An churn of less than 1% in twelve months would appear unreasonably low on the global vintage market.

Cheers

Desmond

Desmond, You are way too kind! :-d

Anyway, below is a general link to the Omega cal. 560 search I run every so often, just to see what is happening.

omega 560 watch items

This morning, there are twelve watches with cal. 560 movements (both with the 2 adj. and unadjusted) for sale. This is typical of what I see when check eBay. Some of these might be frankenwatches, incorrect cases, etc. But for this purpose, it really doesn't matter. If it's got the caliber 560 mainplate, with serial number, it's one of the "3,000", regardless of what else is wrong with it.

Let's assume that half of them are repeated, overpriced, buy-it-now listings that don't change over time. That's six listings that will likely sell this week. I checked last week's completed listings and four transactions were completed.

So, averaging 4 and 6 to 5, and 5 X 52 = 260, I'm going to estimate, somewhere between 200 to 300 of these cal. 560 Omegas will change hands on eBay alone this year. Even if 25% to 30% of these watches are flipped during the year, you're still looking at 150 to 200 sales of unique watches, or somewhere between 5% and 7% of the original production changing hands in a year. I dunno, with only 3,000 produced, that seems a bit high to me. And this is just looking at eBay.

Extrapolating this figure to one of the more common calibers, like the 55X series, with well over a million produced, does this mean that 50,000 to 70,000 of these watches will be sold on eBay in 2011?

Again, the numbers don't make a lot of sense.

I realize that I'm playing very fast and loose with the mathematics here, but it just seems that the turnover in these watches is way too high to justify such a low production figure. Could it be possible that Norman Morris, Inc. assembled a good number of these movements from parts ordered from Omega (a la Watchco?) and didn't account to the home office in Bienne?

Something doesn't add up,
gatorcpa

 

[mondodec]

Hmm Evan I just don't know the answer to the question, except to repeat that it is the right time for these models to be re-surfacing as estate pieces.

But every source Ive tried including this, which was the Omega Museum working record on calibres originally provided to me by Marco, the same answer appears - 3000 pieces.

I dont know however how many train bridges were produced for the parts inventory.

Just looking at the download reports for the past twelve months on that calibre 560 essay I did, I note that over a 1000 downloads occurred. Maybe the essay has contributed in some small way to a bit of activity, I dont know, but a similar thing happened with the Golden Seamaster essay - they started popping up after a long drought, as happened with the seamaster 16.

Truth will out one day - I hope.

Cheers

Desmond

 

[gatorcpa]

But every source Ive tried including this, which was the Omega Museum working record on calibres originally provided to me by Marco, the same answer appears - 3000 pieces.

Can't doubt the source, only the information itself. I know it's all we have. As ulackfocus suggests, maybe this figure is just for the steel cased versions assembled in Switzerland and/or the two adjustment versions, which seem to be much less common than their unadjusted brothers.

Just looking at the download reports for the past twelve months on that calibre 560 essay I did, I note that over a 1000 downloads occurred. Maybe the essay has contributed in some small way to a bit of activity, I dont know, but a similar thing happened with the Golden Seamaster essay - they started popping up after a long drought, as happened with the seamaster 16.

The contributors to this thread likely have about half of those downloads. :-d

Just took a quick search for cal. 504. According to the same source, 25,000 examples were produced. A little more than eight times the listed population of the cal. 560.

omega 504 watch items

There are exactly four examples with cal. 504 now for sale on eBay. Zero in the completed listings column. This makes sense.

Three times this amount (for the 560) with only one-eighth the production does not.
gatorcpa