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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi,

Just wondering if anyone can tell me anything about this watch. It is stamped as "Warranted Alluminium Gold" and It also has "Awarded to Pike Medals Exhibitions 1867 and 1898 For Excellency" on the inner case. To be honest I think it looks a bit tatty but I have no clue about these things and thought I'd ask some folks who might know what they are talking about. :)

It was my late father in law's and my husband is curious about its history/value.

Any info would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks
 

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Pocket watch movements and cases were often sold separately. The movement should say something on it and the case does show the maker but it is too small to make out.

Post what it says on the movement and also what it says on the inside of the case in picture three.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Pocket watch movements and cases were often sold separately. The movement should say something on it and the case does show the maker but it is too small to make out.

Post what it says on the movement and also what it says on the inside of the case in picture three.
The movement has S F stamped on it and in picture 3 the crest says Warranted Alluminium Gold with a Lion in the middle and the letter "M" beneath it. The numbers stamped below the crest are 1644.
 

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S and F stands for slow and fast, has nothing to do with the manufacturer of the movement.
 

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S and F stands for slow and fast, has nothing to do with the manufacturer of the movement.
Ha ha ha.... well I did say I have no clue about this. That is the only letters I can see on the movement there are two numbers though "50" and "67"... thanks for your reply! :)
 

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I'm not sure if this is relevant here, but in the 1800's, aluminum was considered to be a precious metal, partly due to its being very difficult to refine.

It also shines up really pretty.
 

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The movement is a fairly generic cylindre escapement Swiss bridge movement from the mid to late 18th century. Something rather like this (this is just an example, not just the movement but even the maker may differ from yours):

bidfun-db Archiv: Uhrwerke: Thompson 15'''

As such, it will be difficult to identify the maker at all unless you find some markings. These may be found under the dial on the main plate of the movement but you would need to have the thing disassembled to get at them.

Hartmut Richter
 

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Pocket watch movements and cases were often sold separately.
That's less true of swiss watches; especially an early swiss cylinder like this. The holes in the cuvette have to line up with the key posts, and sizing wasn't all that standardized before the Americans upended the industry.
 

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Hi and welcome
Sadly little we can probably say
Swiss
Key wind and Key set
Cylinder escapement
Pre 1900s. Circa 1890s to early 1900s

Worth? Not a lot, except maybe sentimental value
Adam
 
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This indicates that the watch was made for an English speaking market. Otherwise it would have been marked 'A' (Avance) and 'R' (retard).
Maybe?
Not sure that 'myth' is really true.

Again, just my opinion.
 

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Maybe?
Not sure that 'myth' is really true.

Again, just my opinion.
Well I gave my opinion based upon the age of this watch. It is mostly Swiss. I do not see why, about 120 years ago in Switzerland, I would have marked my watch in English unless of course I wanted to export it.

Also, note the use of the word 'indicates'.
 

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Well I gave my opinion based upon the age of this watch. It is mostly Swiss. I do not see why, about 120 years ago in Switzerland, I would have marked my watch in English unless of course I wanted to export it.

Also, note the use of the word 'indicates'.
Understand
and I respect your opinion.

This 'sentiment' seems to have originated on NAWCC forum.

Any evidence in French horological or English journals? Nope.

Switzerland is also German speaking, so why not German too or Belgium or Spanish.

It just does not "indicate" to me, anything as 'English market' versus 'French' market.
I mean very little of Swiss export speaks English?

Again, just my opinion
A
 

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Well, it's pretty clear that "S/F" stands for "Slower/Faster"; I dont' think there are any other languages where S and F apply. England was always one of the big watchmaking centers, so English watches would have been labeled S and F. The original "Swiss Fakes" were meant to pretend to be English watches, so such watches would also have been labeled "S" and "F".

That said, its not that they were intended for English markets so much as they were intended to suggest that they were English made.
 

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Switzerland is also German speaking, so why not German too or Belgium or Spanish.
Well, one goes where the market is, does one not? If I wanted a large market for my watch today I would make it appeal to the largest market. So, Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Punjabi or the 30 other languages we have here in India would be out. Britain and her empire were a huge market, in addition to being the premier watchmaking nation.

I would request the original poster to reveal her location. That would give us a clue about where this watch was sold new. This is assuming that her father-in-law did not buy it on his travels abroad.



It just does not "indicate" to me, anything as 'English market' versus 'French' market.
I mean very little of Swiss export speaks English?
Would you have an alternate explanation for the 'F' and 'S'?

By the end of the 19th century many smaller British watchmakers had taken to importing and selling more affordable Swiss watches. These either did or did not have their name on the dial. This is mainly because the British refused to adapt to the changing times and stuck to their old labour intensive designs/ methods. A perfect situation for an outsider to take advantage of.

Kind regards

Aditya
 

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Well, one goes where the market is, does one not? If I wanted a large market for my watch today I would make it appeal to the largest market. So, Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Punjabi or the 30 other languages we have here in India would be out. Britain and her empire were a huge market, in addition to being the premier watchmaking nation.

I would request the original poster to reveal her location. That would give us a clue about where this watch was sold new. This is assuming that her father-in-law did not buy it on his travels abroad.





Would you have an alternate explanation for the 'F' and 'S'?

By the end of the 19th century many smaller British watchmakers had taken to importing and selling more affordable Swiss watches. These either did or did not have their name on the dial. This is mainly because the British refused to adapt to the changing times and stuck to their old labour intensive designs/ methods. A perfect situation for an outsider to take advantage of.

Kind regards

Aditya
Thank you for all your replies, I am in fact based in Scotland UK. I have now been advised that the "M" stamp stands for Montillier who was a Swiss watch maker. I'm very grateful to all of you for your contributions - so interesting :)
 

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As far as I could observed the swiss makers produce for the special markets on the continent. The british market with colonies was very important during this period as Aditya explained. It was a country where quite many people could affort watches and it was the centre of fine watch making. This typical swiss bridge bar movements with cylindre escapement were made for the low coast sector in comparison to english movements. The industrial volume production races up very fast in switzerland while the english watchmakers in hole still prefer more handcaft. It's a little bid like swiss/chinese nowadays :). Sometimes you find special movement modifications with 3/4 or 1/2 boards only for the english market and F/S. The german market was big but not so 'special' and rich. You sometimes find watches with N/V (nach/vor) often in combination with A/R. The region around La chaux-de-fonds is near the border to france and esspecially the watchmakers use traditional a 'special' frensh colored vernacular. Die offical terminologie for swiss watchmakers was french, as it was spoken french in the west of switzerland and a lot of raw movements in the beginning were sold in france (beaucourt/besancon)

In my opinion there were mainly recognized by product "styling" : The engish market, the osman market, the russian market, the asia market , american market and the rest. Some manufactures more and some less or no adapts.

This watch here has a common movement but a rare and special case as marks55 mentioned. I've seen those cases with standart movements sometimes in the bay but never in real life until now. You also find aluminium cases pocket watches by V+C.

Kind regards Silke
 

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As far as I could observed the swiss makers produce for the special markets on the continent. The british market with colonies was very important during this period as Aditya explained. It was a country where quite many people could affort watches and it was the centre of fine watch making. This typical swiss bridge bar movements with cylindre escapement were made for the low coast sector in comparison to english movements. The industrial volume production races up very fast in switzerland while the english watchmakers in hole still prefer more handcaft. It's a little bid like swiss/chinese nowadays :). Sometimes you find special movement modifications with 3/4 or 1/2 boards only for the english market and F/S. The german market was big but not so 'special' and rich. You sometimes find watches with N/V (nach/vor) often in combination with A/R. The region around La chaux-de-fonds is near the border to france and esspecially the watchmakers use traditional a 'special' frensh colored vernacular. Die offical terminologie for swiss watchmakers was french, as it was spoken french in the west of switzerland and a lot of raw movements in the beginning were sold in france (beaucourt/besancon)

In my opinion there were mainly recognized by product "styling" : The engish market, the osman market, the russian market, the asia market , american market and the rest. Some manufactures more and some less or no adapts.

This watch here has a common movement but a rare and special case as marks55 mentioned. I've seen those cases with standart movements sometimes in the bay but never in real life until now. You also find aluminium cases pocket watches by V+C.

Kind regards Silke
Great post.

If you look here Recomendations to help rescue a worthy Favre freres Alarm please. there is an example that has just been posted with FS, AR and VN. Just missing + and -.:)
 
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That's less true of swiss watches; especially an early swiss cylinder like this. The holes in the cuvette have to line up with the key posts, and sizing wasn't all that standardized before the Americans upended the industry.
That is why I said "often" rather than always.

And I agree with you but will point out that some watch companies used a case company to make cases for their movements and the case would be made to match the key posts.
 
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