[Goldtop 57]

Dear accuracy-fanatics!

Upon reading the sticky thread regarding the DS2, I wondered if all the precidrive-driven watches by Certina are equally good with regard to being (more or less) HAQ.

On their website not all DS-models are listed as having precidrive, but the listed caliber is the same throughout their chronographs and 3-handers, resp.

Is the DS2 chrono special in any regard, having its own thread? Or was it just maybe the first precidriven Certina?

Furthermore, it seems that not all the chronographs have an independently adjustable hour hand. But which ones do? Maybe some 3-handers, as well?

Looking forward to your knowledge.

Oliver

 

[Goldtop 57]

ETA lists the following movements as Precidrive only (+/-10spy between 20 and 30°C)

Precidrive

Those are Precidrive and Powerdrive (smoothly running chronograph hands, only chronographs)

Preci- and Powerdrive

and those are Precidrive and Heavydrive (shock compensated, only 3-hands)

Preci- and Heavydrive

 

[gangrel]

Quartz movements | Manufacture Horlogère Suisse | ETA SA

Our selection of Swiss Made quartz movements ranges from the simplest movement to the most advanced movements on the market.

www.eta.ch

Scroll down to the 13 1/4 ''' size, near the bottom. That's where the G10.212 chronograph movements are. Note there's 7 of em...2 of which are PreciDrive. They're all 212...with a 2 letter suffix. Certina doesn't show the suffix. So if it doesn't say PreciDrive? Assume it's not.

With the 3 handers, that's not an issue, BTW. The movement numbers have no suffixes, so they tell you. The E-series is E6s.acc, where s is size, a is accuracy...0 means standard, 1 or 5 means PreciDrive (1 looks to be center seconds, 5 looks to be small seconds), and cc is the configuration. They're older models...note none have HeavyDrive, which is new...and have, I believe, shorter batterly life. Nominally higher-grade tho. The F-series is F0s.ach, where s is still size, a is 1 for normal accuracy and 4 for PreciDrive. c is still dial configuration. h is HeavyDrive, generally, when it's a 2. An F05.411 is not HeavyDrive; the F05.412 is HeavyDrive. (In the F series, the non-HeavyDrives have largely been replaced.)

 

[BrianBinFL]

I can't contribute to your original question, but I did do a sync analysis of my Certina DS-2 Precidrive Chronograph over 2 years and thought you might be interested in the results.

The sync test began 2020-03-20 11:02 and ended 2022-04-21 21:28. Over that time (762.4 days) the watch gained 17.9 seconds. That works out to about 8.6 seconds per year - which is within the spec of 10 spy.

 

[ronalddheld]

I can't contribute to your original question, but I did do a sync analysis of my Certina DS-2 Precidrive Chronograph over 2 years and thought you might be interested in the results.

The sync test began 2020-03-20 11:02 and ended 2022-04-21 21:28. Over that time (762.4 days) the watch gained 17.9 seconds. That works out to about 8.6 seconds per year - which is within the spec of 10 spy.

What technique did you use?

 

[BrianBinFL]

What technique did you use?

Video method against live-data GPS clock (Gepetto).

 

[MrDisco99]

Dear accuracy-fanatics!

Upon reading the sticky thread regarding the DS2, I wondered if all the precidrive-driven watches by Certina are equally good with regard to being (more or less) HAQ.

On their website not all DS-models are listed as having precidrive, but the listed caliber is the same throughout their chronographs and 3-handers, resp.

Is the DS2 chrono special in any regard, having its own thread? Or was it just maybe the first precidriven Certina?

Furthermore, it seems that not all the chronographs have an independently adjustable hour hand. But which ones do? Maybe some 3-handers, as well?

Looking forward to your knowledge.

Oliver

I don't think any of the Certina quartz chronographs have independent hour hand.

ETA claims +/-10spy on all their PreciDrive movements. Observed results seem mixed, though, and seem to depend on whether or not the watch is on wrist. On wrist performance is better than in the box performance.

 

[BrianBinFL]

I don't think any of the Certina quartz chronographs have independent hour hand.

ETA claims +/-10spy on all their PreciDrive movements. Observed results seem mixed, though, and seem to depend on whether or not the watch is on wrist. On wrist performance is better than in the box performance.

My observation over longer than a two year period was mostly off-wrist as I don't wear the Certina a lot. Not that I don't like it, just that I seem to tend to wear my mechanical watches more.

 

[gaijin]

ETA claims +/-10spy on all their PreciDrive movements.

No. They do not.

 

[MrDisco99]

No. They do not.

All of the ones I've looked up have this in their manufacturing information document:

Are you aware of any that don't?

 

[BrianBinFL]

No. They do not.

While far from definitive, this page on the ETA website says:

Each Trendline movement can incorporate embedded PreciDrive technology, therefore perfectly fulfilling its objective by offering unrivalled accuracy of +/-10 seconds per year.

That certainly seems to imply that "accuracy of +/-10 seconds per year" comes along with using PreciDrive.

Candidly I don't know one way or another - that's just what I found with a quick Google search.

 

[tmathes]

I don't think any of the Certina quartz chronographs have independent hour hand.

ETA claims +/-10spy on all their PreciDrive movements. Observed results seem mixed, though, and seem to depend on whether or not the watch is on wrist. On wrist performance is better than in the box performance.

My DS-2 chrono does have an IAHH but it is a 2018 model. It looks like Certina killed the entire line.

I for one will never buy a watch again with IAHH if it's a simple mechanical coupled design like the DS-2 has. I have an Omega with IAHH (8500 coax) also and along my Certina the hour hand drifted over time. It's a garbage feature, as least from Swatch Group in those watches. Don't know if newer ones are better but that design is the pits. I quit changing dates in both watches with the IAHH since I don't care for repair bills WHEN the hour hand fails (ie, the hour quits moving).

My DS-2 is the titanium, non-COSC version of this watch:

Certina DS-2 Limited Edition Watch With High-End PreciDrive Movement | aBlogtoWatch

We look at the Certina DS-2 Limited Edition with a "panda-dial" and discuss the details of the high-accuracy PreciDrive quartz movement.

www.ablogtowatch.com

Certina may have dropped that particular movement design so I can't speak to what they're selling in the latest quartz chronos.

ETA's datasheet for Precidrive specs +/- 26 sec/yr over a reasonable temperature range, they only 'claim' a typical 10 sec/yr on the datasheet. Anything that is 'typical' is just guidance of what to maybe expect, engineers like me take them with a grain of salt. My DS-2 is around +24 sec/yr and I do not wear it every day. My DS-8 is a bit better at around +18 sec/yr, also not worn ever day.

If you get a Precidrive powered watch, and especially if you don't wear it every day, do not expect 10 sec/yr. You may get it so then it's "great!", but there's also a good chance it's going to be "nope but good enough".

If you want super-duper all-the-time right accuracy and don't want to break the bank then either a GPS or radio-sync'd watch is the way to go. No, not self-contained but my two Citizens are alway dead right (and never a daylight saving change or a short month update needed either).

 

[gaijin]

All of the ones I've looked up have this in their manufacturing information document:

View attachment 17226255

Are you aware of any that don't?

You cleverly left off the column headings - let's look at the whole chart:

There's a big difference between "typical" values and "minimum/maximum" values - plenty of room for the marketing folks to make up "facts" of their own which are not borne out by manufacturing realities.

Looking at the complete chart (you can find the example for the ETA F05.412 here - see pages 6 and 7: ETA F05.412 Manufacturing Information) one can clearly see that the very best a PreciDrive movement can be specified to perform based on acceptable manufacturing parameters is +26 seconds/year at a constant 23DegC.

PreciDrive does NOT mean HAQ. Because the acceptable manufacuring tolerances are so much broader than HAQ requirements, actual performance data must be obtained for each individual watch to determine its HAQ eligibility.

Another way to make your assertion about accuracy, based on the same PreciDrive info published by ETA would be:

Every PreciDrive movement is stated by the manufacturer to perform to no worse than +73 seconds/year when tested to COSC Quartz testing limits.

Hardly a free pass into the HAQ domain.

HTH

 

[MrDisco99]

You cleverly left off the column headings - let's look at the whole chart:

View attachment 17226439

There's a big difference between "typical" values and "minimum/maximum" values - plenty of room for the marketing folks to make up "facts" of their own which are not borne out by manufacturing realities.

Looking at the complete chart (you can find the example for the ETA F05.412 here - see pages 6 and 7: ETA F05.412 Manufacturing Information) one can clearly see that the very best a PreciDrive movement can be specified to perform based on acceptable manufacturing parameters is +26 seconds/year at a constant 23DegC.

PreciDrive does NOT mean HAQ. Because the acceptable manufacuring tolerances are so much broader than HAQ requirements, actual performance data must be obtained for each individual watch to determine its HAQ eligibility.

Another way to make your assertion about accuracy, based on the same PreciDrive info published by ETA would be:

Every PreciDrive movement is stated by the manufacturer to perform to no worse than +73 seconds/year when tested to COSC Quartz testing limits.

Hardly a free pass into the HAQ domain.

HTH

I said they claim +/- 10… which they do. They just have qualifiers attached to it, which I did as well in my post.

I figured that was sufficient to substitute for quoting the whole sheet but I guess I forgot which subforum I was on.

 

[tmathes]

All of the ones I've looked up have this in their manufacturing information document:

View attachment 17226255

Are you aware of any that don't?

That is not a spec, it's a "typical"

A spec will have max/min or some range. I design power management chips for a living so I've written a few datasheets in my time. If it doesn't have bounds for the test conditions (listed in the 2nd column it's not a specification, just a typical value. When a value is "typical" but way, way off the target, the supplier will tell you 'well, that's normally what we deliver but there no guarantees".

These are the specs for a Precidrive, it's the bounds that ETA says they will deliver.

At room temp +/- 26 sec/yr.

If the temp isn't 23C, then +/- 73 sec/yr.

10 sec per year is the target but that is not what they will guarantee that they will deliver all the time. My two Certinas do hit the 23C spec (one just barely).

 

[MrDisco99]

I never said "spec" but yeah sure, that's the doc... quoted twice now.

 

[hoverdonkey]

At room temp +/- 26 sec/yr.

If the temp isn't 23C, then +/- 73 sec/yr.

These figures are certainly a fit for my DS-2. It's a C024.447.17.051.33, seemingly similar (except colour) to @tmathes's one mentioned above (but I haven't noticed any issues with the hour hand):

I bought it last year thinking it would be HAQ, but soon realized it wasn't. In fact, it is so far off 10SPY that I had been wondering if it is faulty, so it has been very interesting to see this thread develop (thanks for starting it, @Goldtop 57!) and good to find out that it is probably fine (even if it is not the ideal outcome). Fortunately, I bought the watch for other reasons too: 1) I had never had a chronograph before (they're too busy for me) and 2) the red-black colour-way reminded me of the briefcase I used at school in the 1980's (yes, I was THAT kid ) And anyway, it was a very cheap indeed, a preowned minter off Ebay.

 

[tmathes]

I never said "spec" but yeah sure, that's the doc... quoted twice now.

The forums posts seem a bit slow to show up, I didn't see Gaijin's post when I was creating mine. If I'd seen his post before I hit 'post' I'd have kept my yap shut. 😁

To anyone interested in one of these Certinas, if you like the design, buy it. Don't let not hitting the 10 sec/yr claim dissuade you.

 

[Peter_030]

if you like the design, buy it. Don't let not hitting the 10 sec/yr claim dissuade you.

Wise words. FWIW, I have a The Citizen HAQ, but never felt the need to check up on the accuracy claimed by the manufacturer. My somewhat childlike reasoning is that should I do that and find out that the watches misses its stated accuracy specs, it would more or less spoils something about the joy of possession. As long as I think it's just perfect, it just is that.

But I'm here for another reason: your advice, feedback, comments regarding the possible acquisition of a Certina PreciDrive. Well, to be honest, the 1st one isn't a PreciDrive but a very good-looking automatic. I'm sorry.

On my shortlist:
Certina DS Eagle Automatic Chronograph C023.727.27.051.00 - example seen below

Certina DS Podium Precidrive Chronograph 1/100Sec. C001.647.22.057.00 - seen below

Certina DS-2 Precidrive Chronograph 1/100Sec. C024.447.11.051.02 - seen below

Certina DS Podium Big Size Chrono Precidrive Limited Edition WRC C001.647.17.207.10 - seen below

Certina DS Podium Big Size Precidrive Chronograph C001.647.16.057.01 - seen below

Certina DS-2 Precidrive Chronograph Flyback C024.618.16.051.00 - seen below

I'm a quartz and an accuracy fan. With that in mind, all quartz models would be hot contenders. That said, the look of that DS Eagle, that hard ass case shape, keeps me interested. I don't hate automatics, but I find quartz watches just much more practical. Most of my collection is quartz, with an emphasis on solar-power and RC-sync.

Let's concentrate on looks and the best size for my 7"/18 wrist. Price isn't an issue, they're well within budget.

I'm looking forward to your comments. A disclosure: I prefer straps to bracelets, but the integrated silicone strap is a point of some concern. I like straps to be removable, ideally quick-release.

What would you choose, and why?

 

[Goldtop 57]

I am quite sure I saw a Certina Eagle as Precidrive somewhere, most probably not a recent model.