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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Well, I'm just back from a short summer holiday and it's time to share some pictures and info of my Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA (Cal.8650A) with the extremely tight ±3 seconds per year accuracy(!!!) 4.19MHz movement. Yeah, the real thing from 1975. This ±3 seconds per year factory specification for accuracy is still the record holder after 40 years!
Since I'm not really a watch collector - though I owned some very nice and rare high accuracy quartz watches over the years - I won't keep this watch for long so I better share the pictures of the watch and movement with you till I have the watch...
So here we go, the mega rare Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA (Cal.8650) from 1975, enjoy the pictures:
 

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Well, I'm just back from a short summer holiday and it's time to share some pictures and info of my Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA (Cal.8650A) with the extremely tight ±3 seconds per year accuracy(!!!) 4.19MHz movement. Yeah, the real thing from 1975. This ±3 seconds per year factory specification for accuracy is still the record holder after 40 years!
Since I'm not really a watch collector - though I owned some very nice and rare high accuracy quartz watches over the years - I won't keep this watch for long so I better share the pictures of the watch and movement with you till I have the watch...
So here we go, the mega rare Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA (Cal.8650) from 1975, enjoy the pictures:
Very nice acquisition! Why is it only temporary one?
 

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I think Hoptroff and Morgenwerk might steal your accuracy title. But if it you like the Citizen or are just flipping it all good.
 

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I think Hoptroff and Morgenwerk might steal your accuracy title...
About the Morgenwerk: I still remember the days (it was not that long ago) when on this high-accuracy forum we did not discuss watches that were "accurate" due to the fact that they were receiving satellite (gps) signals or other form of radio-control (like a radio-controlled Casio). As we put it back then: accurate without external "help" - by its own! Without the external gps signals the Morgenwerk would not be that accurate (same story with my radio-controlled Casio G-Shock without receiving the signals from Frankfurt, Germany).

About the Hoptron: I still remember the days (it was not that long ago) when timepieces with dimensions of 52mm x 42mm x 19.5mm were classified as mini clocks or pocketwatches but certainly not wristwatches... even on the pages of this high-accuracy watch forum...

So those were the days when on this very forum we were discussing high-accuracy watches day by day - pity that you were not participating that time - but things have changed except one: the search engine of the WUS was always and still is very reliable...


And one more thing, just for the records: my 40 years old Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA (Cal.8650A) still performs within factory specifications(!) according to my Rubidium-based analyzer...
 

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Very nice acquisition! Why is it only temporary one?
Thanks, Ron!
This watch for obvious reasons is a collectors' item. I'm not a collector but occasionally I do aquire timepieces (for temporary ownership) in the name of "science"...
I just could not rersist the opportunity to put my hands (or rather have it on my wrist) on this significant piece of horological history... and I was curious, very curious and very sceptic about its claimed accuracy performance. Now I'm satisfied and all I can say: Congratulations to Citizen!
 
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About the Morgenwerk: I still remember the days (it was not that long ago) when on this high-accuracy forum we did not discuss watches that were "accurate" due to the fact that they were receiving satellite (gps) signals or other form of radio-control (like a radio-controlled Casio). As we put it back then: accurate without external "help" - by its own! Without the external gps signals the Morgenwerk would not be that accurate (same story with my radio-controlled Casio G-Shock without receiving the signals from Frankfurt, Germany).

About the Hoptron: I still remember the days (it was not that long ago) when timepieces with dimensions of 52mm x 42mm x 19.5mm were classified as mini clocks or pocketwatches but certainly not wristwatches... even on the pages of this high-accuracy watch forum...

So those were the days when on this very forum we were discussing high-accuracy watches day by day - pity that you were not participating that time - but things have changed except one: the search engine of the WUS was always and still is very reliable...


And one more thing, just for the records: my 40 years old Citizen Crystron 4 MEGA (Cal.8650A) still performs within factory specifications(!) according to my Rubidium-based analyzer...
With only initialized syncs my MW should around 2s/y. IMO, the main preview of the forum is intrinsic accuracy.
 

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I have to say OP, I read a lot of the older posts, and I think you were around long enough to remember when this was the "High End Quartz" forum and you guys talked about all kinds of watches that weren't even close to high accuracy, Rolex seemed to be a favorite. But like you I prefer discussion on advanced technology.

No offense to the Citizen but I think you might want to look at the size and specs of the Hoptroff. I think TC, 43mm, 13mm, 1 s/yr would be a little more accurate. Not exactly a cheap gshock. Definitely the champ, based on specs.

I agree the Citizen is an interesting piece and leads me to ask how did an owner of the Citizen accurately set the time back in 1975? Telephone?
 

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I have to say OP, I read a lot of the older posts, and I think you were around long enough to remember when this was the "High End Quartz" forum and you guys talked about all kinds of watches that weren't even close to high accuracy, Rolex seemed to be a favorite. But like you I prefer discussion on advanced technology.

No offense to the Citizen but I think you might want to look at the size and specs of the Hoptroff. I think TC, 43mm, 13mm, 1 s/yr would be a little more accurate. Not exactly a cheap gshock. Definitely the champ, based on specs.

I agree the Citizen is an interesting piece and leads me to ask how did an owner of the Citizen accurately set the time back in 1975? Telephone?
Fair enough, after 40 years the Citizen has been surpassed in specification. But some folks here like to say RC and GPS doesn't count because the watch has no inherent accuracy. Well, if we are very strict I think digital TC by means of Digital Count is also cheating, because without the logic table and IC their would not be much accuracy either. The Citizen is still King in my book because all it has is a quartz crystal. And we call it High Accuracy Quartz, not High Accuracy Movement! :-D
 

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Fair enough, after 40 years the Citizen has been surpassed in specification. But some folks here like to say RC and GPS doesn't count because the watch has no inherent accuracy. Well, if we are very strict I think digital TC by means of Digital Count is also cheating, because without the logic table and IC their would not be much accuracy either. The Citizen is still King in my book because all it has is a quartz crystal. And we call it High Accuracy Quartz, not High Accuracy Movement! :-D
Might change the forum name in the future, but renaming to High Accuracy Movements might produce posts about mechanical watches.
 

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...No offense to the Citizen but I think you might want to look at the size and specs of the Hoptroff. I think TC, 43mm, 13mm,...
I prefer to deliver the facts when they are available and leave the "think" and guess work for you.
In my earlier post I quoted the exact parameters of the Hoptroff atomic watches. I did not "think" or guess it but visited the manufacturer site and got the info from there:
Atomic Timepieces - Hoptroff London

In your reply you entertain us with your guess work and advice me to check the specification... Shall I smile or cry?!?!?!

Again, just for the record, from the Hoptroff site: Dimensions: 52mm x 42mm x 19.5mm
 

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No worries just look a little closer on the website at the model 9, 11, and 15 timepieces. The models that are the "most accurate Quartz timepieces in the world at 1 s/yr" which are 43mm by 15mm. Frankly comparing the Citizen to their atomic timepieces is ridiculous it can't compete.

In the Hoptroff "Intrinsic" precision is provided by the TC Quartz just like the Citizen, Bluetooth provides the accuracy required for the setting the time. Morgenwerk works in a similar manner using GPS as its reference, Morgenwerk takes it a step further with a self correcting algorithm with each successive sync.

Of course the Citizen gets its accurate time from the most accurate clock at your disposal. Back in 1975, as far as I know, that was the beep on a telephone. Today of course you can use any one of the many external atomic clock sources as your reference, and whatever reaction time you possess.

If you think it's more elegant and accurate to manually set the time on a watch compared to doing it electronically so be it. But, if you believe the Citizen is still the record holder for accuracy, to use your words I don't know if I should laugh or cry.
 

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Might change the forum name in the future, but renaming to High Accuracy Movements might produce posts about mechanical watches.
Then you logically gravitate towards High Accuracy Quartz Movements, or HAQM, but not wanting to exclude CSAC you end up with HAM again, which might confuse HAM radio folks, so you could say High Accuracy Non-Mechanical, or HANM. Personally I consider a vibrating crystal and a battery to be mechanical, as I consider all electronics to be mechanical (philosophically speaking), it's just mechanics at the atomic/quantum scale. But if we take electronic to mean having electric/integrated circuits, then you can cover both Quartz and CSOC with the name High Accuracy Electronic, HAE, or HAEM if you add Movements.
 

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I have searched this forum for hours but have not come up with any actual experiences with the Hoptroff annual accuracy. I am very skeptical. Plus, let's see how (and IF) it performs 40 years from now!

If we really become pedantic, intrinsic can mean 'occurring as a natural part of something' or the wider 'basic property of a system'. I think self-contained accuracy is a more appropriate term for TC (with digital count), whereas intrinsic accuracy should be reserved for the Mhz Crystals.

But who cares anyway?
 

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No worries just look a little closer on the website at the model 9, 11, and 15 timepieces. The models that are the "most accurate Quartz timepieces in the world at 1 s/yr" which are 43mm by 15mm. Frankly comparing the Citizen to their atomic timepieces is ridiculous it can't compete...
You've missed the boat completely: I never talked about Citizen's atomic timepieces, because I don't value them for the same reasons as with your Hoptroff watches. I do not have any brand bias, non whatsoever.

Your Hoptroff need external help to maintain accuracy: "Requires an iPhone or Android phone (download the free Hoptroff App from iPhone / Google Play)"My 40 years old Citizen wristwatch (yeap a real wristwach, not a giant pocketwatch!) can do without it, in style!
 
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Mega great Citizen. Fantastic pics on the watch and the movement. Thanks for sharing.
I'm also curios, as other forum members, about the value of that piece, at least as a reference.

This watch is a clear precedent on what one can expect good movements, as those in Citizen, Seiko 9F, ETA, lasting decades...

BTW, Look at this page: http://www.watchprosite.com/?page=wf.forumpost&fi=17&ti=1022278&pi=7246248

The author has 48 photos wearing many high end watches, and only one shot of those 48 is taken off-wrist...
Guess witch one was? the atomic thing! LOL

Regards.
 

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OP, you might want to check the attitude. First you quoted the size of Hoptroffs much larger and way more accurate atomic pieces not his quartz watches. That's what I was talking about. When I politely corrected you, you confused that with Citizen RC.

Secondly the Hoptroff requires a phone for the complications, registration, diagnostics, and if you choose to hack electronically. Not for precision. If you want you could set the time manually.

As far as your 40 year old Citizen not requiring any external source for accurate time. That again is misguided. It requires a person with good reaction time and an accurate reference clock. In 1975 it was probably displaying the inaccurate time off a bank clock, or whatever people used to set their watch back in the day. It would display that wrong time with a high precision throughout the year. Without a good reference, your 40 year old watch is as accurate as my microwave.

The Citizen is nice, but it is not the accuracy record holder, and Hoptroff Quartz watches are not as big as you claim, and use a TC movement to maintain their precision.

Lastly it's not my Hoptroff, I have little interest in their designs and complications. If I were to buy a highly accurate to 50ms watch with Bluetooth connectivity it would be an Apple Watch. I was just stating facts.
 

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All right. Everyone ease up on personal comments. If there is little additional technical content added, I may close this thread down.
 

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All right. Everyone ease up on personal comments. If there is little additional technical content added, I may close this thread down.
Best if you close it as soon as possible! Thanks, Ron!
 
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