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Discussion Starter #21
I am pretty sure that there is no lume.

The conclusion that we came to last year,was that they were possibly fakes,but pretty good ones!
Fake Citizen… gosh :-x


The plot thickens,I have just looked on ebay.Must be the same seller from Suffolk same serial Number 461960!:-s

Neither of mine were from this seller to my knowledge.

Unless its a different case(it looks the same in photos) its 43mm across including crown.46mm lug to lug.
Regardless,its one of my favourite watches
The seller is from Suffolk indeed :-/

Good to know about the case, it should look good |>

Have you got any pics sjb ?
 

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Discussion Starter #23
The watch has arrived today, and it's a real beauty :)
















So, do we have a model number here ? :think:








The rubber band looks like a SEIKO strap, but the logo looks weird to me… a bit rough maybe :think:













The watch isn't big… a regular SUB size. 42 mm, crown included.
















Size comparison with the Alpha SUB






 

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Discussion Starter #26

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Discussion Starter #28

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I almost bought one of these (and I still want one) recently but opted for a Miyota powered Bernhardt. There are somethings that don't add up, but as the sellers I've seen are in the UK I am less suspicious than I would be if they were coming from a place that was known for fakes/redials/frankens (Ukraine, Thailand, India etc). That doesn't mean that there isn't something fishy, I would just love to know more about this model. I've done a lot of searching for "NH4000" and have come up with links that lead back to WUS.

Edit: Just found another Eagle 7 model, this time with a sub style case, dial and hands with essentially the same caseback (NH4000), just a different 6 digit code. The seller (with whom I have dealt) said early '90s manufacture, and this watch was not NOS, it had wear like you would find on a 20 year old watch. I'd love to find something from Citizen Watch Co, as the Eagle 7 models are, IIRC, Far East market only. Perhaps they are numbered differently.

I know, why fake a Citizen? But since there are "Feikos" I imagine it must make sense to someone to make a fake of a non-luxury brand.

I really like many Eagle 7 watches, I hope these examples aren't some fakers way of using cases made for the replica market and slapping a Citizen dial on them :-s
 

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Thanks for reviving this thread, OldGreyFella - I wouldn't have known about these mystery watches. It's truly a head-scratcher. I think one of the most important services that WUS provides to us as we learn about watch styles is to alert us to these (possible) counterfeits. I really don't know of many other places where this detailed information is discussed. Much appreciated! :-!
 

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Thanks for reviving this thread, OldGreyFella - I wouldn't have known about these mystery watches. It's truly a head-scratcher. I think one of the most important services that WUS provides to us as we learn about watch styles is to alert us to these (possible) counterfeits. I really don't know of many other places where this detailed information is discussed. Much appreciated! :-!
Cheers but I think the 'possible' counterfeit is pretty definite in this case. As I have posted on another thread about these I bought one similar, damaged the crystal removing the cyclops and the authorised Citizen repair centre I sent it to for replacement crystal were quite adamant it was counterfeit, specifically the model number was for a watch with a square face, the clasp was a type never used by Citizen and most obviously all Citizen watches have a dial-number at the bottom of the dial, not just '8200 Japan'.

As Zippofan said why fake a Citizen? That's what made me doubt it was fake, and it seemed such a good build, good movement, and very accurate. If you could make a watch that good why not have your own brand, or fake something with a higher value?
So I queried Citizen's original bald statement that it was fake, suggesting it may be from a foreign market that they were unfamiliar with, that's when they came back with the detail above. I reckon it is pretty clear-cut.
Be careful out there..
 

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That's a shame. You're right, we must be careful as there are plenty of unscrupulous dealers on the worldwide auction marketplace <sigh>

I've seen plenty of counterfeit Vietnam era Zippos, to the point where I won't even attempt to add one to my collection as much as I would like to.
 

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Cheers but I think the 'possible' counterfeit is pretty definite in this case.
....If you could make a watch that good why not have your own brand, or fake something with a higher value?
So I queried Citizen's original bald statement that it was fake, suggesting it may be from a foreign market that they were unfamiliar with, that's when they came back with the detail above. I reckon it is pretty clear-cut.
Be careful out there..
Clear-cut indeed. Thanks for clarifying that. Indeed, the head-scratching part is ... why? :-s
If they can make a watch this nice, they could just put their own brand on it and sell for twice as much.
...or maybe just call it "Parnis" ;-)

I realize that there is a fine line on WUS, with direct instructions NOT to discuss fakes, yet by far some of the most useful threads here are the ones that help us identify and AVOID fakes. For example there was a Cartier thread a couple years ago that was a bit scary, and helped to identify counterfeits that were so close to the original even ADs couldn't tell the difference. I don't know if it's inappropriate to ask, maybe if Griff or someone around could clarify the best ways to teach and alert us all about fraud, while staying on the correct side of "no discussion of fakes" rule.
 

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I realize that there is a fine line on WUS, with direct instructions NOT to discuss fakes, yet by far some of the most useful threads here are the ones that help us identify and AVOID fakes. For example there was a Cartier thread a couple years ago that was a bit scary, and helped to identify counterfeits that were so close to the original even ADs couldn't tell the difference. I don't know if it's inappropriate to ask, maybe if Griff or someone around could clarify the best ways to teach and alert us all about fraud, while staying on the correct side of "no discussion of fakes" rule.
As a follow up, there shouldn't be any promotion of fakes, ever, but threads/posts that warn members away from watches that have been shown to be fake are a good thing. No one wants to get taken in by a fake watch, so if someone knows that a particular watch is fake and warning against purchase then discussion is OK. Just be careful so that promotion of a proven fake does not occur.

In this particular case, until a sample was sent to an authorized repair center and returned as a fake, there was legitimate question about whether or not this model was just a rare one and no reason to believe it to be fake, especially since it appears well made, unlike some fake Seikos I've seen on the worldwide auction marketplace. So the OP's original intent was to show his new watch to the membership and not to promote fakes since that wasn't known at the time of posting. On the other hand, if a member were to post up a known fake and promote its' sale, that is obviously against the rules.

I still wish it wasn't true, I love the look of the watch.
 

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As a follow up, there shouldn't be any promotion of fakes, ever, but threads/posts that warn members away from watches that have been shown to be fake are a good thing. ...(snip)
Thanks, Griff, this is what I figured, as threads like this one and the one OldGrey linked to are extremely helpful. They are also just ...big...bummers. I get an odd sick feeling inside, an actual physical reaction. Even some really savvy folks like Reno got tricked last year with this, it must happen so easily to the less aware.
 

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That's a nice looking watch for sure. I, too, have been tempted by Citizen lately, especially something like an Eco-Drive diver. Unfortunately their best looking such diver is larger than my ideal case size, and their smaller watch with a similar look is much less attractive.

It's ok, though. With the way I've been snapping up watches lately, I can afford to wait for a Citizen model that I really love.
 

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+1 for Citizen.

My first real watch was a Citizen Chrono 12 yrs ago (still own it). Their CS is one of the best I've encountered (they rehauled the chrono movement and sent back the watch within 2 weeks).

Then I went with Swiss autos for couple of years and now back to my Citizen roots.

Hey Reno, if you ever think of flipping your Yema Elements, shoot me a PM ;-).

Cheers mate. You've got a very nice collection.

-Sandeep
 
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