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I have watches with both makes of movement in them and buying another Sellita wouldn't bother me at all. In fact, based on the performance of my Sellita SW200-1, I would pick a Sellita over ETA if asked to choose.
 

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I got the information from an article that must have incorporated information obtained from Sellita.

To quote: "It’s true that the SW-200-1 makes a mockery out of the ETA 2824-2 timing, as WF accurately points out it is better in position to position timing errors. The secret is a well researched hairspring technology, the hairspring in the SW-200-1 is quite literally dozens of microns thicker, and on a high beat calibre like these, it performs with better accuracy. The hairspring maker, is not Nivarox-Far, but an ancillary company and Sellita have exclusive use of their products for years to come."

My personal experience with the SW200-1 seems to back up the precision claim.

View attachment 3926378
Okay - well I was looking for something maybe a bit more official than a quote from an article of unknown origin (at least to me). Can you tell me where the article is from? Can you provide a link?

The idea that a thicker balance spring = better accuracy is not really logical from a technical standpoint. The strength of the spring is related to the balance, so it has to be appropriate for that balance. And this claim of making one making a mockery of the other, as I have said (and you can look up if you like) the factory timing specs for the SW200 and ETA 2824-2 are in fact identical.

Is that your photo? If so, it doesn't tell me very much about the watch accuracy - it's a small portion of a larger picture required to see how accurate a watch is or can be. Can you measure the rate in all 6 positions, and post the results? Just need numbers, not photos of each position. The Delta between the positions is a much better indicator of how well a watch can run (how well it's adjusted). Not doubting that you have good results on your watch, just curious what the numbers are.

Cheers, Al
 

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I've been happy with mine.

Had an Oris with a SW200 and it ran +6 sec/day consistently.

Currently have a TAG with a SW500 and it runs +4 sec/day. The chrono function also matched an electronic timer during a 6 hour endurance race. It was dead on at the 6 hour mark.
 

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I'd pick Sellita over ETA if given the choice, simply because parts are likely to be easier to get in the future, what with swatch growing restrictions, therefore the watch using it easier and cheaper to repair and maintain. Other than that, I own watches featuring both, performances seem to be on par.
 

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That may apply in 100 years.
I'd pick Sellita over ETA if given the choice, simply because parts are likely to be easier to get in the future, what with swatch growing restrictions, therefore the watch using it easier and cheaper to repair and maintain. Other than that, I own watches featuring both, performances seem to be on par.
 

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Thanks - without knowing anything about how this testing was done, it's difficult to draw any sort of conclusion. How any given single specimen runs out of the box has a lot of variables associated with it.

So for example were these tested "as received" or did the watchmaker tweak anything prior to testing? If they were tested as is, then how the respective factories adjust and regulate things is a major factor. I have serviced hundreds of watches that were not COSC and they ran well within COSC specs when I was done, so that is not a particularly unusual achievement (watches of many brands, and many with ETA movements of course as they are very common). How they run out of the box is not necessarily how good they can run. How well a watch runs is partly how well it's made (and for a vintage watch what condition it's in) and partly down to the skill and effort put into adjusting/regulating it.

They left out the actual numbers, so again this article doesn't tell us very much, other than a sample size of 1 of each movement was tested in an uncertain way, with uncertain results.

Also, still no solid information on this balance spring in my view. In this industry magazine from August last year (very close to the same time this claim is made that they have some other supplier of balance springs in the WatchFlipr article), it appears that at that time Sellita was still getting the escapement parts from ETA (bold/underline emphasis added by me):

"The race against the clock has begun: “Our aim is to replace the movements we buy from ETA with Sellita calibres by 2019. We therefore need to expand our in-house production by at least 600,000 movements in that time.”
The company nevertheless remains dependent on the Swatch Group for its escapements – the components that regulate the watch, including the balance and balance springs. Here too, Miguel Garcia has reason to be relieved: Comco has ordered Swatch Group’s Bienne-based subsidiary Nivarox to continue deliveries, on the grounds that it does not have the necessary “visibility” to establish a timetable for reduction. Nivarox has an even greater monopoly than ETA, producing virtually 90% of the parts used by Swiss watchmakers. Sellita, which supplies around 250 brands, will be focusing its efforts on these strategic components, for in-house calibres. “We are putting in place in-house production of escapements. But it is a very lengthy process.”

MECHANICAL - Who will succeed ETA? | Europa Star Magazine

So someone from Sellita is basically directly contradicting the claim made in that WatchFlipr article...

The bottom line is I have no doubts that the Sellita can run just as well and an ETA can - I have serviced them and tweaked them to run to much tighter tolerances than brands have for their COSC watches. To say they are superior though needs more backing up than the very scant information this WatchFlipr article provides in my view.

Cheers, Al
 

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The bottom line is I have no doubts that the Sellita can run just as well and an ETA can - I have serviced them and tweaked them to run to much tighter tolerances than brands have for their COSC watches. To say they are superior though needs more backing up than the very scant information this WatchFlipr article provides in my view.

Cheers, Al

I am not questioning your authority as a watchmaker and your posts show and in-depth knowledge of the matter.

However, are you sure it does good to your authority if you claim you regulated movements to COSC standards without actually conducting the COSC test. Or did you follow the COSC testing protocol over the course of 15 days and under controlled laboratory conditions?
 

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I am not questioning your authority as a watchmaker and your posts show and in-depth knowledge of the matter.

However, are you sure it does good to your authority if you claim you regulated movements to COSC standards without actually conducting the COSC test. Or did you follow the COSC testing protocol over the course of 15 days and under controlled laboratory conditions?
Of course I did not conduct full COSC testing - not even the brands do this when they service a movement, so to expect that is a bit much. I very much doubt the article where they tested the 2 movements did full on COSC testing either. Please read what I wrote again, as I did not claim that I had tested them to COSC standards. I time watches to the standards set out by the brands, using a timing machine as they would do when they service a watch.

The brands set out tolerances for timekeeping, and those tolerances vary based on the movement being a COSC movement or not - what I am saying is that I can get these movements to be in the manufacturer's service tolerances for their COSC watches.

For example, non-COSC movements are typically checked in just 3 positions, where COSC movements are checked in 5 positions. I actually check all movements I service in 6 positions, because I want the fullest picture I can get of how the watch is running, regardless if it is COSC or not. I also perform extensive testing after the watch is fully assembled (that as you likely know, COSC does not do).

So for the Seliits SW200 I reference having just serviced in the Oris, this is not a COSC grade movement of course. If I look at the standards for an Omega COSC watch for example, which is a brand I service often (all of their COSC watches have the same tolerances) they allow positional variation at full wind to be as much as 12 seconds, measured over 5 positions. I measured this SW200 over 6 positions, and had it down to 5.9 seconds of positional variation, so 1/2 of what Omega would allow on a COSC watch. I then fully assembled this watch, and checked it for 24 hours in each of the 6 positions, and also 24 hours on the final test winder - this is my normal testing procedure. It averaged +3.3 seconds per day over the those 7 days of testing, with the slowest position being +2.5 seconds, and the fastest being +5.5. COSC specs that everyone on watch forums quote for average daily rates are from -4 to +6, and this watch is obviously well within that.

Another example is a just serviced an ETA 7750 (non-COSC again in a Wenger chronograph, so not particularly high end) that was 4.1 seconds over 6 positions, so about 1/3 of what Omega would allow for a chronometer grade watch, and over one more position than COSC checks to. I am starting all the 24 hour long positional checks today. Here is a shot of the timing results for the Wenger 7750 - note the Delta at the red arrow is 4.1 seconds, and average rate is 0:



So yes you are absolutely right that I have not performed the COSC tests to the letter (no service facility does and I didn't claim that I did), but I have certainly exceeded the requirements of the brands for their COSC watches, and believe I can say what I said without any concerns.

Cheers, Al
 

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Of course I did not conduct full COSC testing - not even the brands do this when they service a movement, so to expect that is a bit much. I very much doubt the article where they tested the 2 movements did full on COSC testing either. Please read what I wrote again, as I did not claim that I had tested them to COSC standards. I time watches to the standards set out by the brands, using a timing machine as they would do when they service a watch.

The brands set out tolerances for timekeeping, and those tolerances vary based on the movement being a COSC movement or not - what I am saying is that I can get these movements to be in the manufacturer's service tolerances for their COSC watches.

For example, non-COSC movements are typically checked in just 3 positions, where COSC movements are checked in 5 positions. I actually check all movements I service in 6 positions, because I want the fullest picture I can get of how the watch is running, regardless if it is COSC or not. I also perform extensive testing after the watch is fully assembled (that as you likely know, COSC does not do).

So for the Seliits SW200 I reference having just serviced in the Oris, this is not a COSC grade movement of course. If I look at the standards for an Omega COSC watch for example, which is a brand I service often (all of their COSC watches have the same tolerances) they allow positional variation at full wind to be as much as 12 seconds, measured over 5 positions. I measured this SW200 over 6 positions, and had it down to 5.9 seconds of positional variation, so 1/2 of what Omega would allow on a COSC watch. I then fully assembled this watch, and checked it for 24 hours in each of the 6 positions, and also 24 hours on the final test winder - this is my normal testing procedure. It averaged +3.3 seconds per day over the those 7 days of testing, with the slowest position being +2.5 seconds, and the fastest being +5.5. COSC specs that everyone on watch forums quote for average daily rates are from -4 to +6, and this watch is obviously well within that.

Another example is a just serviced an ETA 7750 (non-COSC again in a Wenger chronograph, so not particularly high end) that was 4.1 seconds over 6 positions, so about 1/3 of what Omega would allow for a chronometer grade watch, and over one more position than COSC checks to. I am starting all the 24 hour long positional checks today. Here is a shot of the timing results for the Wenger 7750 - note the Delta at the red arrow is 4.1 seconds, and average rate is 0:



So yes you are absolutely right that I have not performed the COSC tests to the letter (no service facility does and I didn't claim that I did), but I have certainly exceeded the requirements of the brands for their COSC watches, and believe I can say what I said without any concerns.

Cheers, Al
I am still not convinced. Did you do a test under varying temperature? Temperature variation has a strong influence on accuracy.

However, why it always sends a shiver down my spine is if someone mention my watch with ETA/Sellita elabore or standard grade movement runs within COSC. I am not convinced about that without testing for it.

According to COSC (the domain name suggests it is official) a movement which is not top-grade is very unlikely to pass a COSC test at all:

COSC - Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres

This comes directly from COSC (see above link):

==
Q: Can a non-certified watch meet the precision criteria of a chronometer ?

R: No, as the components of a chronometer are of a better quality and the care granted to its assembly and its setting cannot be compared.
==

I read it as follows and if I am misrepresenting what is being said people will chime in and educate me: If a watch movement is not top-grade no matter what you do it will never ever pass a COSC test.
 

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No, it's going to be starting to have an effect very shortly and will just become worse as time goes on. Loooooong before 100 years.
There are mililions and millions of ETA movements arround and you will have more than enough original spare parts and/or donor movements available for the next 100+ years. Not to mention you can always swap the damaged ETA movement with a brand new Sellita, Soprod or Seagull movement for less than the repair would cost.
 

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There are mililions and millions of ETA movements arround and you will have more than enough original spare parts and/or donor movements available for the next 100+ years. Not to mention you can always swap the damaged ETA movement with a brand new Sellita, Soprod or Seagull movement for less than the repair would cost.
I wouldn't want to swap out an ETA movement for a Seagull movement or get donor parts from an old 2824.
 

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I wouldn't want to swap out an ETA movement for a Seagull movement or get donor parts from an old 2824.

This is a very good point. As watchmaker Archer aptly pointed out not all parts in the Sellita movement are the same when compared to the equivalent ETA.

It is completely unrational, but I belong to the group of people who also would want to get genuine Sellita parts. I don't want parts from ETA, although they may be exactly the same, I want genuine Sellita parts.

It goes both ways.
 

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I am still not convinced. Did you do a test under varying temperature? Temperature variation has a strong influence on accuracy.

However, why it always sends a shiver down my spine is if someone mention my watch with ETA/Sellita elabore or standard grade movement runs within COSC. I am not convinced about that without testing for it.

According to COSC (the domain name suggests it is official) a movement which is not top-grade is very unlikely to pass a COSC test at all:

COSC - Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres

This comes directly from COSC (see above link):

==
Q: Can a non-certified watch meet the precision criteria of a chronometer ?

R: No, as the components of a chronometer are of a better quality and the care granted to its assembly and its setting cannot be compared.
==

I read it as follows and if I am misrepresenting what is being said people will chime in and educate me: If a watch movement is not top-grade no matter what you do it will never ever pass a COSC test.
I'm not sure if I can make any clearer - I never said I was testing to COSC specs - please go back and read what I have written again. I said that I have made watches run tighter than the tolerances the manufacturer's use for their COSC rated watches. The manufacturers do not use temperature variations in their post service testing.

I am not trying to convince you of anything. If you have any detailed knowledge of watch timing specs, what I have posted is self evident. You can keep saying I haven't proven a claim that I did not make if you want...

Cheers, Al
 

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I'm not sure if I can make any clearer - I never said I was testing to COSC specs - please go back and read what I have written again. I said that I have made watches run tighter than the tolerances the manufacturer's use for their COSC rated watches. The manufacturers do not use temperature variations in their post service testing.

I am not trying to convince you of anything. If you have any detailed knowledge of watch timing specs, what I have posted is self evident. You can keep saying I haven't proven a claim that I did not make if you want...

Cheers, Al

I am not a watchmaker. I would put the cart before the horse after dissasembling and assembling a movement.

But the following that you wrote triggered my initial response:

==
I have serviced hundreds of watches that were not COSC and they ran well within COSC specs when I was done, so that is not a particularly unusual achievement (watches of many brands, and many with ETA movements of course as they are very common).
==

All I wanna say: how do you know if a watch runs within COSC specs? I mean the daily rate is just a small subsection of the entire COSC watch testing protocol.

Of course I am more than happy if a watch runs +1 sec/day on my wrist but I would not call it to run within COSC specs.

I was really surprised to hear this from a watchmaker who I guess knows his trade better than me.
 

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It is completely unrational, but I belong to the group of people who also would want to get genuine Sellita parts. I don't want parts from ETA, although they may be exactly the same, I want genuine Sellita parts. It goes both ways.
How about all those ETA movements produced by the Sellita?
In 2013 [Sellita] supplied 1.4 million movements: 800,000 Sellita calibres and 600,000 ETA calibres that were assembled and resold.


 
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