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I completely understand the methodology and testing targets. What you are doing is playing a game of semantics and trying to either discredit an excellent watchmaker or just to piss off the entire forum. Get over yourself, we know what COSC means and how they arrive at certifying a watch as a COSC timepiece. I own several of them and have read all sorts of information regarding this very topic, so please don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about. Not too tough to follow.


MechanicalQuartz
Average daily rate: −4/+6[SUP][13][/SUP]Average daily rate at 23 °C: ±0.07
Mean variation in rates: 2[SUP][14][/SUP]Rate at 8 °C: ±0.2
Greatest variation in rates: 5[SUP][15][/SUP]Rate at 38 °C: ±0.2
Difference between rates in H & V positions: −6/+8[SUP][16][/SUP]Rate stability: 0.05
Largest variation in rates: 10[SUP][17][/SUP]Dynamic rate: ±0.05
Thermal variation: ±0.6[SUP][18][/SUP]Temporary effect of mechanical shocks: ±0.05
Rate resumption: ±5[SUP][19][/SUP]Rate resumption: ±0.05
n/aResidual effect of mechanical shocks: ±0.05;200 shocks equivalent to 100 g (981 m/s², 3,217 ft/s²)
COSC Standards
all units in seconds unless specified
Meaningful test or marketing gimmick?[edit]There is a debate among watch enthusiasts as to whether the COSC chronometer certification for a Swiss watch is a meaningful test or a simple marketing gimmick. On the one hand, when a watch maker intends to submit a movement for COSC testing, they frequently employ additional jewelling (i.e. to the barrel) and better quality[SUP][22][/SUP] "Ébauche" parts (i.e. higher quality hairsprings, mainsprings, balance wheels; regulators, etc.) all aimed at the coveted chronometer certification.[SUP][23][/SUP] On the other hand, it is likely that most good quality movements on the market today are capable of being tweaked, and timed to fall comfortably within the benchmark -4/+6 average daily rate criteria of the COSC. However, movements so submitted to COSC are more likely to be submitted with better quality parts in order to be confident of a successful test, and as a consequence may be more likely to maintain better timekeeping rates over the service life of the time piece.[SUP][24][/SUP]
Therefore, some of the ″Haute Horlogerie″ Swiss Watch Manufacturers have created on 5 June 2001, ″The Fleurier Quality Foundation″ to establish new aesthetic and technical criteria dedicated to the certification of finished watches. Their certification meets a normative requirement for the market and the final customer to have a better definition of quality watchmaking, adapted to today's demands and technological advances. Geneva's have created along similar criteria the Geneva seal.
That's not methodology. Methodology is how they take their readings. I don't think a single independent watchmaker does it the same way as the COSC.

His methodology would be acceptable for ISO 3159, if he met all the other requirements.

In my mind, if Archer did his testing to all the requirements of ISO 3159, in a fully assembled watch, timed using his current watch timing method, this would be superior to what COSC does. 'ISO 3159 Chronometer' might not have the ring of COSC, but it removes the BS Swiss control over 'chronometers'.
 

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Yeah, I read a report several years ago. That they send any, amazes me. Maybe had had the highest fail %. I dont remember. ..but I'm glad that list was put up.
 

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That's not methodology. Methodology is how they take their readings. I don't think a single independent watchmaker does it the same way as the COSC.

His methodology would be acceptable for ISO 3159, if he met all the other requirements.

In my mind, if Archer did his testing to all the requirements of ISO 3159, in a fully assembled watch, timed using his current watch timing method, this would be superior to what COSC does. 'ISO 3159 Chronometer' might not have the ring of COSC, but it removes the BS Swiss control over 'chronometers'.

I know what methodology means, I was posing the basics behind COSC requirements. I'm done, you are one of the most frustrating individuals I've ever encountered on this forum. Your answer is the only answer, you play a game of semantics as I mentioned before. EVERYONE else here but YOU seems to understand what is being said but you just want a brawl. You are not a watchmaker so your opinion means nothing to me. Al is a specialized watchmaker, I think I'll take what he says LONG before what you have to say. You are one stubborn SOB!
 

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I know what methodology means, I was posing the basics behind COSC requirements. I'm done, you are one of the most frustrating individuals I've ever encountered on this forum. Your answer is the only answer, you play a game of semantics as I mentioned before. EVERYONE else here but YOU seems to understand what is being said but you just want a brawl. You are not a watchmaker so your opinion means nothing to me. Al is a specialized watchmaker, I think I'll take what he says LONG before what you have to say. You are one stubborn SOB!
This is as much a game of semantics as 'Swiss Legend' trying to weasel into being able to call their stuff 'Swiss Made'. It's important to the watch manufacturers and buyers.

And why would you post the COSC timing when I've already been referencing ISO 3159, unless you didn't know what either methodology or ISO 3159 mean?

Again, back to Sellita:

How is it that it's a big deal now, even though a ton of ETA stamped movements have been assembled by Sellita over the years and no one was the wiser?
 

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mleok, so accuracy = recall and precision = precision, as per our machine learning classification math?
I'm not sure how to translate it into a machine learning context, since recall and precision in machine learning has more to do with binary classifiers, whereas accuracy and precision seems to make more sense when you have measurements on which you can define a distance.

Accuracy has to do with the mean of the measurements agreeing closely with the true value, and precision has to do with the deviation when the same measurement is performed repeatedly.

Edit: In retrospect, I guess you might make the kind of analogy you were proposing, but it is not a perfect one. High precision in machine learning could be said to be conceptually similar to precision, since it means that the algorithm returns mostly relevant items, which are close together in some sense. But recall doesn't seem to map quite as well to accuracy.
 
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This is as much a game of semantics as 'Swiss Legend' trying to weasel into being able to call their stuff 'Swiss Made'. It's important to the watch manufacturers and buyers.

And why would you post the COSC timing when I've already been referencing ISO 3159, unless you didn't know what either methodology or ISO 3159 mean?

Again, back to Sellita:

How is it that it's a big deal now, even though a ton of ETA stamped movements have been assembled by Sellita over the years and no one was the wiser?
I was done but I have to say that you are one ignorant person. We all can read and I think we all have an understanding of ISO 3159. How about you climb down from your high horse, it doesn't suit you.


ISO 3159 provides the definition of a wrist-chronometer with spring balance oscillator.Only movements which meet the precision criteria established under ISO 3159 are granted an official chronometer certificate.Movements are tested for 16 consecutive days according to a tests panel.
 

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I was done but I have to say that you are one ignorant person. We all can read and I think we all have an understanding of ISO 3159. How about you climb down from your high horse, it doesn't suit you.


ISO 3159 provides the definition of a wrist-chronometer with spring balance oscillator.Only movements which meet the precision criteria established under ISO 3159 are granted an official chronometer certificate.Movements are tested for 16 consecutive days according to a tests panel.
Then why would you copy-pasta the COSC numbers as 'methodology' *rolleyes* when we all know that the tolerances and positions come from the previously mentioned ISO 3159?

I think we need to add 'ignorance' to the list of things you don't understand.

Again, back to Sellita:

Is there any way to differentiate an older Sellita-assembled ETA movement from an ETA-assembled ETA movement?
 

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By using that term improperly he's a contributing factor to the gaggle of misinformed people running around thinking that their 7S26s and ST16s are 'COSC spec' or 'Chronometers'.
I never said my speedy was a chronometer and I was careful to say that the only COSC related thing about my watch (not a $50 movement, by the way) is that it is running at +3 per day. The only thing you are proving is that you are a pompous person looking to pick arguments. You keep going in circles with your idiotic point which is....what? I can't even remember what your point really is. That somehow Archer doesn't know what he is talking about? Or that I said my watch is a chronometer when in fact I never said that? What a waste of time this thread is.
 

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Back on topic...

It's interesting to note that Sell it a was in a bit of an earlier kerfuffle about how many of its Swiss movements ended up in Hong Kong watches.

Mouvements - «Sellita est devenue importante, elle gêne, c'est évident» | Insider | WorldTempus

I'm curious if that history had any effect on Swatch's decision to reduce. Maybe complaints about devaluing the 'Swiss Movement' image?
Again, back to Sellita:

How is it that it's a big deal now, even though a ton of ETA stamped movements have been assembled by Sellita over the years and no one was the wiser?
Again, back to Sellita:

Is there any way to differentiate an older Sellita-assembled ETA movement from an ETA-assembled ETA movement?
Well I've been trying to stay on topic.

More important for others how 'ignorant' I am for pointing out how misuse of terminology that has specific meanings. Because a good watchmaker is allowed to not present things correctly, contributing to the existing massive forum misinformation regarding COSC, because he is a 'legend'.

I think I get what you guys are about now.

Sooo...

About the Sellita points?

- Sold lots of what they made to Hong Kong

- Have been assembling ETA movements for years and nobody noticed.

- Can anyone tell the difference between ETA/Sellita and ETA/ETA?
 

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For most people on this forum, the only thing they know is the -4/+6 spd specification. You have defined "COSC timing standards" to mean the -4/+6 spd specification, and I understand that it is consistent with how the term is understood typically on the forum. I am also aware that you make a distinction between the full battery of COSC testing and the daily accuracy requirement, but I am saying that most people are not aware of that distinction. As such, this sloppy use of the term is bothersome for people who care about the precise use of language, and it further perpetuates the myth that -4/+6 spd is all there is to COSC testing.
I think this sums it up quite nicely.

Dinman has an issue with the loose/imprecise use of the term COSC, and feels that just b/c it is in common use isnt sufficient reason to continue perpetuating this improper usage. That's a perfectly reasonable, albeit strict, view to have - if others dont agree with it, that's fine as well, but it isnt "wrong" per se.

I dont think his pointing out of this term to Archer was in any way impugning Archer's abilities - sure, he could have been a bit more tactful in his choice of words, but that's about it. Atleast, it didnt come across that way to me on this thread.

And calling someone an SOB just b/c someone questioned Archer? Get a sense of perspective, fella. You are WAY out of line here.
 
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This thread has clearly moved far away from the original 'is Sellita any good?' and the current debate is no longer constructive.

Time to leave this topic. Thanks all
 
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