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Date changes at 3am is it an issue

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ap1984

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hi fellow members, I recently bought a watch from another member on WUS. We are having a dispute about an issue with the watch. The watch in question is a Zenith Chronometre Chronomaster. The date changes around 3-4am in the morning as opposed to midnight. After writing to the seller, he confirmed the behaviour was the same during his care and doesn't think it is an issue because most of us are asleep when that happens. He also refused my request for a refund even after I offered to pay for the shipping, ignored several of my emails and wish me good luck with the watch. I asked my watchsmith and was told that it was due in part to the quick set date was often adjusted outside of the 3-9 window and therefore caused it to slip over time.

I have a few questions that I would like to ask:

1. Do you consider it an issue?
2. If so, is it reasonable to expect the seller to disclose it?
3. What resolution if any would you consider?

Many thanks all.
 
#4 ·
So it is a maintenance issue and not a design flaw? If yes, he should have disclosed it. I think you give him one more chance, letting him know you will leave a bad review if he continues to stonewall.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
#5 ·
If the date changed regularly at the same time every day, I personally wouldn't care, as it will always be correct during the hours that I would be looking at it, and even if I were up late, I would be aware that it was late changer. If he had known about the issue (which he had, apparently), he should have mentioned it. Is this a big enough issue for you to return it? Depends on how much money you paid, and how important it is to you--I am guessing you got a good price on it, and date issue aside, may not have bonded with it, and combined with the date, would really rather not own it after all. I would argue the non-disclosure fact when either trying to get a partial refund, or a full return--but again, I wouldn't bother if I liked the watch, as I really wouldn't care about the after midnight date change.
 
#7 ·
Did your watchmaker actually open up the watch to offer that kind of explanation? If not, it appears to be a wild stab in the dark that is more likely explained by the hands being set in the wrong position.
 
#8 ·
+1 Can't assume that it was the seller's fault unless you have definitive proof. That said, I thoink that it should have been disclosed. I am not familiar with this Zenith so, no clue if other models have this "flaw".

If it bothers you enough then you will have to file a dispute. If you got it at a good price, perhaps a service to correct the issue, (if it bothers you enough) would be the route to go.

Otherwise, I see this on Seiko's every day but never on a high(er) end Swiss watch. It may happen but I'm not sure of the prevalence.

Bradjhomes said:
Did your watchmaker actually open up the watch to offer that kind of explanation? If not, it appears to be a wild stab in the dark that is more likely explained by the hands being set in the wrong position.
Click to expand...
 
#9 ·
As mentioned in my post above, as well as countless others here, this is normal behavior for a Seiko.

I don't think that I've ever had one that snapped over at 12AM, (never owned a Grand Seiko though) and with the day/date complications, that's a true, slow burn change. :)

expLr-2 said:
My Seiko 5 Titanium is like this also and they say you shouldn't mess with the time during those hours. This is not considered a problem or issue with the movement though.
Click to expand...
 
#10 ·
ap1984 said:
I have a few questions that I would like to ask:

1. Do you consider it an issue?
2. If so, is it reasonable to expect the seller to disclose it?
3. What resolution if any would you consider?

Many thanks all.
Click to expand...
1. yes and no. it depends on cause. if this is because of hands were set wrong, then it is not an issue really - any watchmaker can fix this in 15 minutes. if something happened to date mechanism, yes, it's an issue, but then from what I remember in most cases when you f..ked with date setting outside safe hours, date does not changes at all.
2. if he thinks this behaviour is normal, then no. why would I disclose something that is normal in my view ;) yes, this would lead to a lot of misunderstandings, but hey, for example I bought watch and to close clasp I have to push both buttons (this is just hypothetical), but then it appears that "normally" one should close clasp just by closing it and not use buttons. So, when I sell this watch I do not disclose this "feature" because of in my view it is normal behaviour. buyer, from other hand might think different :)
3. I would ask watchmaker to assess is it date change mechanism fault or just hand misalignment and go from there. If this is latter, then it's easy fix, if former I might return or ask to cover repairs.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Sadly, there are a lot of watch sellers everywhere including several here that don't fully disclose everything that should be mentioned. I've tried asking lots of questions thinking I'd have all my bases covered, but then you get lame stuff you don't even think of asking because it obviously should have been clearly disclosed in the listing such as DENTED DIALS, SCRATCHED CRYSTALS, BENT HANDS, multiple dents around the top side of the lugs from poor strap changes, etc.. Most of them then go on to pretend that it wasn't there when they shipped it or they somehow never noticed it.

Never had a Zenith but typically the date change should happen around midnight. I know for sure that if you change the date on an H10 movement (which is a modified ETA 2824) during the "danger zone" the date change will end up occurring around 3am.

Yes this should have been disclosed to you as something seems to have happened to the movement. I would do some research about it, contact Zenith or a watchmaker to confirm. If the the seller isn't communicating or trying to work with you then you can take it up with paypal or your credit issuer.
 
#13 ·
EHV said:
As mentioned in my post above, as well as countless others here, this is normal behavior for a Seiko.

I don't think that I've ever had one that snapped over at 12AM, (never owned a Grand Seiko though) and with the day/date complications, that's a true, slow burn change. :)
Click to expand...
OP isn't talking about a Seiko, he's talking about a Zenith. Many movements do snap over right at 12 (or sometimes right after).

I'm inclined to suspect, as has been mentioned, that someone got lazy during a service and reinstalled the hands in the wrong position. But your watchmaker would know for sure after opening it up.

Assuming this isn't a characteristic of how this particular movement was designed, then it should have been disclosed.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#14 ·
I think the first thing I would do is ask the question in the Zenith forum to check in with others that may own that model to see if the date change seems normal. I don't think it's unusual that you could have a slow date change (depending on that movement) - and when it happens could also vary. There is a question right now on the IWC forum regarding a Big Pilot date change. On that watch, I know it's not instantaneous and starts around 11:30p. If that were originally my watch (the Zenith), and that's when it happened when I bought it, I too would have thought it normal and particular to that movement - and not disclosed it.

If it seems to be normal, then I could easily live with it. If it can be shown to not be normal, I would hope the seller would be then be reasonable. But that's always the risk in dealing with non-AD sellers - buy the seller.
 
#15 ·
It happens to many El Primero's built prior to 1999. It is metal fatigue of the unlocking date spring. The spring is a small part which should be replaced by the newly designed date spring (changed since 1999).
 
#16 ·
To me it’s not an issue, and would not have occurred to me to disclose it. I am aware that some watches are supposed to change exactly at midnight, but unless advertised as such, I wouldn’t assume so.

That said, I would issue a refund to protect my reputation and make the problem go away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#17 ·
I personally think that there is one of two issues involved here. If the watch was once set to flick over at midnight but this has gradually shifted to 3:00 am, then there is some sort of an issue: badly in need of a service or weak date spring. If it was always like that, on the other hand, it's just a matter of adjusting the hands in relation to the date change.

The crucial thing to do is to have the watch put on an electronic timer and see the trace. If the trace is all wobbly, if the amplitude is low (<270°), if the amplitude is particularly low just before the date change, then there is a serious issue. If none of these occur and the watch simply flicks over at the same time every day and this is simply around 3:00 am, then just have the hands readjusted.

Hartmut Richter
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
To be honest, I felt cheated and if the seller were nicer about it, I would have been ok. It's not cool to ignore emails and wish me good luck with it. And what I don't understand is I have even offered to pay for the return shipping.
 
Discussion starter · #20 · (Edited)
EHV said:
+1 Can't assume that it was the seller's fault unless you have definitive proof. That said, I thoink that it should have been disclosed. I am not familiar with this Zenith so, no clue if other models have this "flaw".

If it bothers you enough then you will have to file a dispute. If you got it at a good price, perhaps a service to correct the issue, (if it bothers you enough) would be the route to go.

Otherwise, I see this on Seiko's every day but never on a high(er) end Swiss watch. It may happen but I'm not sure of the prevalence.
Click to expand...
Nope not yet. Still waiting for seller's reply that it's okay to open the caseback in case he wants it back in its original condition.
 
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ap1984
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