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1. I guess it's a matter of interpretation - you did state that it was "not a big deal" and I do think this understates the issue. It is not a big deal to you, but it is to me, and to all of us who have had the watch stop.

2. Yes - you have disproven my claim about other movements stopping besides the 2500.

3. Actually I didn't presume every single 3861 watch made till now will have stopped - I presumed every single movement made till now has the inherent issue that could lead it to stop. But it indubitably has the mechanical/material issue whether it stops or not.

4. It is disappointing, perspective is good - but you surely must recognise that someone of modest means who has bought an expensive watch - costing more than his car - which then fails, has a different perspective than a world class watchmaker.

with respect, as ever
1. I guess it is a matter of interpretation. It is a simple fix at service, consisting of pressing out 2 bushings, and pressing in 2 bushings. Total time involved will be about 2 minutes per bushing if you are taking your time. I do not consider this to be a problem that is serious in terms of what it takes to fix it. This is routine work that any watchmaker has done countless times. It will be covered under warranty if it happens in the first 5 years, and if it doesn't and you have a paid service, these parts will not cost you anything extra.

4. Yes as I had said multiple times, people have every right to be disappointed. Perhaps I have not shown what you consider to be the right amount of outrage over this, but I am sticking to facts and information as much as I can. Getting outraged about something like this doesn't help solve it. My approach to these things is to be pragmatic, rather than dramatic.
 

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Well if you have not heard of failures that cause watches to stop since the 2500 "stopping problems" then you haven't been paying attention.

Look if you guys want to live in your own bubble be my guest, but the realty is the failure on the 323X movements is essentially the same situation as the 3861 - excess wear in the wheel train. The seconds wheel wears where it goes through the adjacent part just like the center wheel does in the 3861. The difference is that the center wheel requires a lot more torque to keep operating, so in the 3861 is stops, and on the 323X is keeps running, but the wear still happens just the same. It's more luck than good design that the 323X movement don't stop because of this.

Here is the post from RF where the worn seconds wheel is shown:



Here I've cropped it to show the wear in more detail - the grooves you see at the red arrow should not be there. This is is severe wear, and it's actually quite a lot more significant compared to what Omega has shown as wear on the center wheels of the 3861 related to the bushing issue:



As the watchmaker there says it "wears to shreds" in the 323X. To consider this less of a failure is to have no understanding at all of what the word means.

As for other movements that have had similar issues, the Omega 8500 and 9300 based movements were experiencing stoppages due to the DLC coated barrels having issues. The bulletin was issued in 2014 explaining the problem (again wear at the intersection of two parts of different materials), and giving the solution - redesigned mainspring barrels. Omega rolled out new barrel designs for each affected caliber over a period from July of 2014, to around February of 2016.

The next one was when they changed the balance staff material and the cap jewel system to make them anti-magnetic, there were wear issues on the balance staffs that would eventually cause the watches to stop. Those Nivachoc jewels were changed (2016), and a different oil was used in the balance jewels from then on. Someone had those shock settings returned after warranty service, and they sent them to me, so here are some photos:



Cal. 8400 G watch had to go in for service just 2 years after it was purchased new. The watch had started losing time, and then it would randomly stop even though it was being worn and was fully wound.



You can see the discolouration of the oils in the setting, from wear on the balance staff. This was across all the anti-magnetic movements, so all the 8500 series, 8700 series, 8800 series, and 9300 series.

In none of these cases did it affect every single watch out there, and I suspect that the 3861 will be the same. Some will make it to a "normal;" service interval, and some will not. Just like back when the 2500 issues were the big firestorm of the day here on WUS.

Again, these sorts of problems are certainly not unheard of, but the hyperbole surrounding the 3861 is certainly at a level I've not seen before. Everybody needs to take a breath, IMO. I understand the disappointment in spending the money on something, and not getting a product that works right. Doesn't matter if it's a watch, car, or new washing machine - it sucks and no one is saying that it doesn't, but it's not the end of the world either.

I can look at pretty much any movement and see things that change over time - some changes are big and some are not, but very few watch movement design remain static over time. There are always improvements being made, and in some cases movements are completely abandoned for new designs in a very short time. Ever wonder why the 157X series of Rolex movements were used for decades, and then when the 303X came along, they only stayed in production for about 10 years, and then was replaced with the 313X that lasted from 1988 until recently? You think that was because the 303X was a great movement?

Anyway, you guys can continue to rant on as if this is the only movement design that has failed in this way, but that is simply not the case.

Cheers, Al
Thanks for lucidly explaining the problem with illustrations. Your posts are education tools for us. Regards
 

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1. I guess it is a matter of interpretation. It is a simple fix at service, consisting of pressing out 2 bushings, and pressing in 2 bushings. Total time involved will be about 2 minutes per bushing if you are taking your time. I do not consider this to be a problem that is serious in terms of what it takes to fix it. This is routine work that any watchmaker has done countless times. It will be covered under warranty if it happens in the first 5 years, and if it doesn't and you have a paid service, these parts will not cost you anything extra.

4. Yes as I had said multiple times, people have every right to be disappointed. Perhaps I have not shown what you consider to be the right amount of outrage over this, but I am sticking to facts and information as much as I can. Getting outraged about something like this doesn't help solve it. My approach to these things is to be pragmatic, rather than dramatic.
Thanks Archer

I understand that it is a simple job taking a few minutes to push out n pop in 2 bushings, and from that perspective I can understand why you say its "no big deal".

However, there is more involved here than a few minutes to fix bushings: for the owner there is the initial disappointment n panic - then the realising there's an issue - then the trip to the AD/service centre, then the 4-6 weeks turnaround wait. Once on your bench the few minutes to swap out the bushings is only part of the few hours necessary for full service of the movement: disassembling, old bushings removed n new added, fully servicing, cleaning, testing, timing, returning, customer collecting etc

So from the perspective of an engineer and skilled watchmaker it is no big deal - from the perspective of the purchaser, I'd call it a bit of a drama :)
 

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Thanks Archer

I understand that it is a simple job taking a few minutes to push out n pop in 2 bushings, and from that perspective I can understand why you say its "no big deal".

However, there is more involved here than a few minutes to fix bushings: for the owner there is the initial disappointment n panic - then the realising there's an issue - then the trip to the AD/service centre, then the 4-6 weeks turnaround wait. Once on your bench the few minutes to swap out the bushings is only part of the few hours necessary for full service of the movement: disassembling, old bushings removed n new added, fully servicing, cleaning, testing, timing, returning, customer collecting etc

So from the perspective of an engineer and skilled watchmaker it is no big deal - from the perspective of the purchaser, I'd call it a bit of a drama :)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you didn't go through that process at all - you opted for a straight up refund, right?

Look, again no one is saying you shouldn't be disappointed, and that getting it fixed isn't an inconvenience. But the level of drama here would suggest that Omega has not only sold you a defective watch, but they insulted your wife and kicked you in the nuts.

If a fault in a watch causes "panic" then that is quite puzzling - this isn't a life saving medication, it's a wrist watch. Omega will fix it, and if you don't trust them to, don't buy any more of their watches.
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you didn't go through that process at all - you opted for a straight up refund, right?

Look, again no one is saying you shouldn't be disappointed, and that getting it fixed isn't an inconvenience. But the level of drama here would suggest that Omega has not only sold you a defective watch, but they insulted your wife and kicked you in the nuts.

If a fault in a watch causes "panic" then that is quite puzzling - this isn't a life saving medication, it's a wrist watch. Omega will fix it, and if you don't trust them to, don't buy any more of their watches.
I just wonder what these private tours are for.

You may be knowledgeable about watches, but you lack tact.

No offense...
 

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Private tours? No idea what this means.

But thanks for your input. Hopefully that was tactful enough for you. :)
I will not continue this topic. I wish you have a nice day!

Ps.
Your statements are professional and much to be learned from them, as if from a good and patient teacher. ;)
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but you didn't go through that process at all - you opted for a straight up refund, right?

Look, again no one is saying you shouldn't be disappointed, and that getting it fixed isn't an inconvenience. But the level of drama here would suggest that Omega has not only sold you a defective watch, but they insulted your wife and kicked you in the nuts.

If a fault in a watch causes "panic" then that is quite puzzling - this isn't a life saving medication, it's a wrist watch. Omega will fix it, and if you don't trust them to, don't buy any more of their watches.
You are right, I didn't go through that process - but was responding to you reducing the process to a couple of minute switch-out of bushings. I was merely stating the obvious that to those who do go through the process, instead of a couple of minutes it is nearer couple of months, from fault discovery to repair to back on wrist. My taking a refund and sitting it out till Omega get their act together seems the better option.
 
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You are right, I didn't go through that process - but was responding to you reducing the process to a couple of minute switch-out of bushings. I was merely stating the obvious that to those who do go through the process, instead of a couple of minutes it is nearer couple of months, from fault discovery to repair to back on wrist. My taking a refund and sitting it out till Omega get their act together seems the better option.
Yes it is obvious, so I wasn't "reducing" anything. It's not like I expect people to do this themselves, so like any intervention (be it one under warranty or paid service) the watch has to be sent in.
 

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So I have just handed over the 3861 to the authorised service centre. Watch suddenly stopped dead and wouldn't wound up one bit. First prognosis says normal wear & tear. I'm honestly dejected that a 7-month old watch is showing wear and tear. Reading comments here, I'm steeling myself to request for a replacement watch even though it is covered under sales warranty. This was my first luxe purchase and knowing it can drop dead like this is just awful. I'd probably sell once its back after 4 weeks. Experience ruined. May go for a GS instead.
Just read the Omegaforum thread - clearly a known issue - so sorry - being brand new I would suggest you print off the forum thread and take it with the watch back to store for refund/replacement - you've had this a few days - not good enough, known issue, money or swap

I bought my 3861 a few weeks ago but now am a tad worried
 

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Watch suddenly stopped dead and wouldn't wound up one bit.
Can you explain what that means? Does it mean that the crown can be wound but it never comes to a stop? If so, that’s a broken mainspring.

If it means that the watch has stopped and it’s fully wound, then likely this is the known bushing problem, and a service will completely correct it.

Cheers, Al
 

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You are right, I didn't go through that process - but was responding to you reducing the process to a couple of minute switch-out of bushings. I was merely stating the obvious that to those who do go through the process, instead of a couple of minutes it is nearer couple of months, from fault discovery to repair to back on wrist. My taking a refund and sitting it out till Omega get their act together seems the better option.
I don’t really get this. You can either wait to have your watch sent back and repaired and returned to you, or you can return it and wait around for an undefined amount of time until you feel comfortable buying another one. Either way, you’re making the same number of trips to the AD and you’re having to wait, in your case probably longer than if you had just had it repaired. I’d much rather receive a watch back that I know had the issue resolved than trying to guess when it’s safe to buy another new one. To each his own, though.
 

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I don’t really get this. You can either wait to have your watch sent back and repaired and returned to you, or you can return it and wait around for an undefined amount of time until you feel comfortable buying another one. Either way, you’re making the same number of trips to the AD and you’re having to wait, in your case probably longer than if you had just had it repaired. I’d much rather receive a watch back that I know had the issue resolved than trying to guess when it’s safe to buy another new one. To each his own, though.
I was responding to the statement it was just a few minutes to swap out the bushings - which I am sure it is, a minor repair for a skilled watchmaker - but the whole process from realising there is a problem to resolving the problem is perhaps a month or two. Sure from the watchmaker's point of view, a small repair job easily done under warranty - from the owners point of view a disappointing big hassle. Both viewpoints are legitimate. But it seems Omega have it sorted, repair parts now available and watches with issues getting sorted and new manufactured pieces sent out with new bushings. But more earlier 3861s with issues coming to light. One AD told me unsolicited he'd had several returned for repair.
 

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I got a 3861 about 2 weeks ago and didn't realize that there's an ongoing issue with this movement. Not sure if I am having the issue or not. I didn't fully wind the watch for 2 consecutive days and just usually do 15-20 turns. I tried to use the chronograph today and it stopped thrice at 58 seconds (including small seconds window). I tried to fully wind the watch now and it's been more than 2 hours so I'm still monitoring. Not running the chrono I was able to do 46 hours run time in one full charge last week. I also did chrono test last week and it's fully wound and I just happened to just stop it after 2.5 hours.
 

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I got a 3861 about 2 weeks ago and didn't realize that there's an ongoing issue with this movement. Not sure if I am having the issue or not. I didn't fully wind the watch for 2 consecutive days and just usually do 15-20 turns. I tried to use the chronograph today and it stopped thrice at 58 seconds (including small seconds window). I tried to fully wind the watch now and it's been more than 2 hours so I'm still monitoring. Not running the chrono I was able to do 46 hours run time in one full charge last week. I also did chrono test last week and it's fully wound and I just happened to just stop it after 2.5 hours.
how is it going? Have you had a repeat issue?
 

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My (replacement) 3861 has now developed the fault too. Stopped straight after starting the chronograph, and did it a couple of times in a row. Damn.

Time to send it back I guess, might wait until after the holiday season though as I guess the service center probably closes down at some stage.
 

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My (replacement) 3861 has now developed the fault too. Stopped straight after starting the chronograph, and did it a couple of times in a row. Damn.

Time to send it back I guess, might wait until after the holiday season though as I guess the service center probably closes down at some stage.
The replacement had the issue, too? That's totally not acceptable in my book. Omega claims they know the cause of the issue. This means that either this watch was sent out irresponsibly without the necessary update, or they don't have the cause fully determined.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 
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