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Thanks Archer again for stating the obvious.

There are some members here who own this beautiful watch and are in denial mode as if it's a perfect movement inside the watch. There is no reason to deny the fact.

I just wish make clear that calibre 3861 does have issues without any doubt. Omega has fortunately identified the problem and, therefore, has its solution by replacing 2 bushings.

We should not pretend that all is well if the watch is performing normally without any problems. It still has inherent problem that needs to be addressed sooner or later.
I entirely agree - every 3861 mvmnt produced before recently (we assume they have made the change at production) has mismatched material and therefore inherent weakness and potential problems. Given it is an issue of wear and residue production, presumably more use, means more wear, means more reside and more strain and drop in amplitude and stoppages and returns to service.

People are posting saying "I have run mine and no stoppage so I dont have the problem" - but they are missing the point. The more they use it, the more it will wear down. The chrono isn't the problem per se - activating it just adds extra strain.

What we dont know is when/whether Omega are putting new 3861 movements with the correct material bushings in.

But I also read a fascinating post somewhere from @Archer in which he explained how all watches have inherent issues and the question is how long will they go s replacement before service/oils/part replacement :)
 
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All mechanical watches will require service and parts with lots of wear will get replaced. As said by the experts any mechanical watch with high usage will wear out parts. If it goes during the first five years I’m covered. Anything after 5 years, your close to your first service anyways. Then after your first full service your covered another two years. I’m comfortable with Omega backing their product.
 

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All mechanical watches will require service and parts with lots of wear will get replaced. As said by the experts any mechanical watch with high usage will wear out parts. If it goes during the first five years I'm covered. Anything after 5 years, your close to your first service anyways. Then after your first full service your covered another two years. I'm comfortable with Omega backing their product.
Your reply is not related to the discussion we're having here, sir.
 

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Your reply is not related to the discussion we're having here, sir.
Sorry Pun - I appologize for not adding more detail to get my point accross to add any value to your discussion here. I'm not saying that there isn't an issue and I'm not in denial. I'm just saying that based on a resident expert (Archer), this issue isn't something to freak out about and that Omega knows what the issue is and have a solution for it. Some insightful words from Archer who has deep knowledge of the industry that is respected here and on Omega forum.

"This change is a mandatory change at service, so regardless if the watch shows symptoms or not, these bushings will be changed for the new design."

"watchmakers know what to do when they encounter this problem - it's the normal way of doing things."

"There isn't a mass production movement out there that hasn't had some sort of bug that needed to be resolved, so this isn't a big deal really..."


I was freaking out about this as much as anyone else was. But after reading through numorous posts about this issue, it helped me put my nerves at ease. My understanding is 1) Yes there is an issue that has been identified. 2) Omega has made a modification to correct the issue identified. 3) All new 3861 movements should have that change implemented from the factory 4) Any movements that have issues would be covered under warranty or and will be upgraded at the time of their first service. Lastly 5) I haven't read anything that would suggest Omega not standing behind their product under warranty.

So I took the chance on one recently - and I'm happy with it. Ok well to be honest - it feels a bit smaller on my wrist than what I had expected.
 

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The market only knows that Speedmaster's second hand prices are always going down, although less than other Omega models.
Far more serious Rolex 32xx movement problems do not prevent prices from going up constantly.
yeh, fair do's on Omega

Rolex is its own law - a commodity not a watch - people dont care whether there is an unresolved issue - its not bought by many as a time-piece
 

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"There isn't a mass production movement out there that hasn't had some sort of bug that needed to be resolved, so this isn't a big deal really..."
I respect Archer hugely, but on this I fear he is seriously understating the issue.
Besides the 3861 with known issues that stop the watch - what other "quality" movements in $8000 watches are just stopping? Indeed, what other cheap mass made expensive watch movements are just stopping?

I have owned over 50+ watches over 50+ years (some cheap mass produced, some expensive) and only had 2 watches that ever stopped on me or exhibited ongoing mechanical inherent issues. The first about 17yrs ago was a NOS Zenith El Primero Rainbow that just seized after 1 day ownership - and could not be wound at all (main-spring slipped? who knows) - I was given a replacement (indeed a model upgrade) that I wore almost daily for a year or 2 and that never missed a beat and I never heard of anyone else having this issue with an EP. So I bought a one-off, my bad luck.

The other was my 3861 - that stopped cos of the now known mechanical/material issue which every single movement made until recently, has, presumably.

I totally accept what Archer says about many movements being work in progress with minor upgrades made here n there, removing glitches, improving functionality - analogous perhaps to Camera firmware upgrades. However I think to say all mass made movements have some bugs is to belie the truth that besides very early Omega co-axials, I can't think of any mass made movements having an inherent problem actually stopping the watch. Correct me if I am wrong.

The Tudor Pepsi GMT date wheel seems to be a well documented issue (sad that Rolex wont admit it) although mine has been fine for 2 years ownership. And there are reported issues with Rolex 32XX series with low amplitude and accuracy slipping outside COSC after a year. But the watches aint stopping

Is there another expensive Swiss or German or Japanese watch manufacturer, selling watches costing many thousands, that has movements that keep stopping for mechanical/material issues and which require structural repairs???? I ain't ever heard of one, have you?

It may be no big deal to Archer who can understand and easily mend it at his bench - it may be no big deal to those who have the watch and not had the problem materialise yet. But as someone for whom it was a stretching financial expense, to fully wind it, activate the chrono, and then see the thing stopped dead, and who thereafter had an echo of that sickening sinking feeling each time looking at it half expecting it to be stopped, and who didnt fancy a month + turn-around on it being serviced n sorted, well, it was a big deal.
I'll wait a year or so but may just buy a 1861
 

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Sorry Pun - I appologize for not adding more detail to get my point accross to add any value to your discussion here. I'm not saying that there isn't an issue and I'm not in denial. I'm just saying that based on a resident expert (Archer), this issue isn't something to freak out about and that Omega knows what the issue is and have a solution for it. Some insightful words from Archer who has deep knowledge of the industry that is respected here and on Omega forum.

"This change is a mandatory change at service, so regardless if the watch shows symptoms or not, these bushings will be changed for the new design."

"watchmakers know what to do when they encounter this problem - it's the normal way of doing things."

"There isn't a mass production movement out there that hasn't had some sort of bug that needed to be resolved, so this isn't a big deal really..."


I was freaking out about this as much as anyone else was. But after reading through numorous posts about this issue, it helped me put my nerves at ease. My understanding is 1) Yes there is an issue that has been identified. 2) Omega has made a modification to correct the issue identified. 3) All new 3861 movements should have that change implemented from the factory 4) Any movements that have issues would be covered under warranty or and will be upgraded at the time of their first service. Lastly 5) I haven't read anything that would suggest Omega not standing behind their product under warranty.

So I took the chance on one recently - and I'm happy with it. Ok well to be honest - it feels a bit smaller on my wrist than what I had expected.
This is exactly how I feel. I'm going to wear the heck out of this watch. Isn't that why Omega provides a 5 year warranty in the first place? They aren't guaranteeing that there won't be a problem. They are saying if there is a problem, we stand behind our product and will fix it. You essentially have 5 years to wear the heck out of the watch and discover if there is a problem.
 

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I respect Archer hugely, but on this I fear he is seriously understating the issue.
Besides the 3861 with known issues that stop the watch - what other "quality" movements in $8000 watches are just stopping? Indeed, what other cheap mass made expensive watch movements are just stopping?

I have owned over 50+ watches over 50+ years (some cheap mass produced, some expensive) and only had 2 watches that ever stopped on me or exhibited ongoing mechanical inherent issues. The first about 17yrs ago was a NOS Zenith El Primero Rainbow that just seized after 1 day ownership - and could not be wound at all (main-spring slipped? who knows) - I was given a replacement (indeed a model upgrade) that I wore almost daily for a year or 2 and that never missed a beat and I never heard of anyone else having this issue. So a one-off bad luck.

The other was my 3861 - that stopped cos of the now known mechanical/material issue which every single movement made until recently, has, presumably.

I totally accept what Archer says about many movements being work in progress with minor upgrades made here n there, removing glitches, improving functionality - analogous perhaps to Camera firmware upgrades. However I think to say all mass made movements have some bugs is to belie the truth that besides very early Omega co-axials, I can't think of any mass made movements have an inherent problem actually stopping the watch. Correct me if I am wrong.

The Tudor Pepsi GMT date wheel seems to be a well documented issue (sad that Rolex wont admit it) although mine has been fine for 2 years ownership. And there are reported issues with Rolex 32XX series with low amplitude and accuracy slipping outside COSC after a year. But the watches aint stopping????

Is there another expensive Swiss or German or Japanese watch that keeps stopping for mechanical/material issues and which requires structural repairs???? I aint ever heard of one, have you?
Agreed, Simon. Clear and simple explanations for a mechanical failure, while undoubtedly accurate, still represent "failure" - not a discrepancy, not an asterisk in the performance log.

'Curious to read of other total engine failures within modern movements, especially those of higher-end, large production numbers.
 

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I realised after reading at link provided here of rolexforum that Rolex 32xx movement issues are not a typical failure per se. It's more related to the accuracy claims and lower amplitude when power reserve is on lower side whereas Omega 3861 is related to mismatched material and can be termed as total failure in working. It's not heard by me since cal 2500 co-axial movement glitches. BTW I'm in this hobby since 1995 and do own around 50 Swiss watches.
 

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Here's an example - Almost any horizontally coupled chronograph that has the gearing slightly mis-spaced will seize sporadically when the chrono is started and then run when it's stopped. I had this issue on 3 Seamaster chronographs (1120 & 3330 movements)

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 

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Here's an example - Almost any horizontally coupled chronograph that has the gearing slightly mis-spaced will seize sporadically when the chrono is started and then run when it's stopped. I had this issue on 3 Seamaster chronographs (1120 & 3330 movements)

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Which means that if you're heavy chronograph user you'd better go with a vertical clutch based watch, like this


Owned it for 3 years and it never missed a beat.
 

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Here's an example - Almost any horizontally coupled chronograph that has the gearing slightly mis-spaced will seize sporadically when the chrono is started and then run when it's stopped. I had this issue on 3 Seamaster chronographs (1120 & 3330 movements)

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
Here using chronograph is not necessary to trigger the stoppage. The watch stops even if chronograph is not running. It's just that initiating chronograph hastens the process.

I agree Omega automatic chronograph movements, mentioned by you, too had initial issues but technology and times have changed since then.
 

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I respect Archer hugely, but on this I fear he is seriously understating the issue.
Besides the 3861 with known issues that stop the watch - what other "quality" movements in $8000 watches are just stopping? Indeed, what other cheap mass made expensive watch movements are just stopping?

I have owned over 50+ watches over 50+ years (some cheap mass produced, some expensive) and only had 2 watches that ever stopped on me or exhibited ongoing mechanical inherent issues. The first about 17yrs ago was a NOS Zenith El Primero Rainbow that just seized after 1 day ownership - and could not be wound at all (main-spring slipped? who knows) - I was given a replacement (indeed a model upgrade) that I wore almost daily for a year or 2 and that never missed a beat and I never heard of anyone else having this issue with an EP. So I bought a one-off, my bad luck.

The other was my 3861 - that stopped cos of the now known mechanical/material issue which every single movement made until recently, has, presumably.

I totally accept what Archer says about many movements being work in progress with minor upgrades made here n there, removing glitches, improving functionality - analogous perhaps to Camera firmware upgrades. However I think to say all mass made movements have some bugs is to belie the truth that besides very early Omega co-axials, I can't think of any mass made movements having an inherent problem actually stopping the watch. Correct me if I am wrong.

The Tudor Pepsi GMT date wheel seems to be a well documented issue (sad that Rolex wont admit it) although mine has been fine for 2 years ownership. And there are reported issues with Rolex 32XX series with low amplitude and accuracy slipping outside COSC after a year. But the watches aint stopping

Is there another expensive Swiss or German or Japanese watch manufacturer, selling watches costing many thousands, that has movements that keep stopping for mechanical/material issues and which require structural repairs???? I ain't ever heard of one, have you?

It may be no big deal to Archer who can understand and easily mend it at his bench - it may be no big deal to those who have the watch and not had the problem materialise yet. But as someone for whom it was a stretching financial expense, to fully wind it, activate the chrono, and then see the thing stopped dead, and who thereafter had an echo of that sickening sinking feeling each time looking at it half expecting it to be stopped, and who didnt fancy a month + turn-around on it being serviced n sorted, well, it was a big deal.
I'll wait a year or so but may just buy a 1861
Well, not surprised, but you have completely misrepresented my comments. I'll leave it at that, because honestly I don't have any patience for this crap.
 

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Well, not surprised, but you have completely misrepresented my comments. I'll leave it at that, because honestly I don't have any patience for this crap.
Archer, if that is so I will readily retract and sincerely apologise. Pls explain how I have misrepresented you?
 

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I realised after reading at link provided here of rolexforum that Rolex 32xx movement issues are not a typical failure per se. It's more related to the accuracy claims and lower amplitude when power reserve is on lower side whereas Omega 3861 is related to mismatched material and can be termed as total failure in working. It's not heard by me since cal 2500 co-axial movement glitches. BTW I'm in this hobby since 1995 and do own around 50 Swiss watches.
Well if you have not heard of failures that cause watches to stop since the 2500 "stopping problems" then you haven't been paying attention.

Look if you guys want to live in your own bubble be my guest, but the realty is the failure on the 323X movements is essentially the same situation as the 3861 - excess wear in the wheel train. The seconds wheel wears where it goes through the adjacent part just like the center wheel does in the 3861. The difference is that the center wheel requires a lot more torque to keep operating, so in the 3861 is stops, and on the 323X is keeps running, but the wear still happens just the same. It's more luck than good design that the 323X movement don't stop because of this.

Here is the post from RF where the worn seconds wheel is shown:



Here I've cropped it to show the wear in more detail - the grooves you see at the red arrow should not be there. This is is severe wear, and it's actually quite a lot more significant compared to what Omega has shown as wear on the center wheels of the 3861 related to the bushing issue:



As the watchmaker there says it "wears to shreds" in the 323X. To consider this less of a failure is to have no understanding at all of what the word means.

As for other movements that have had similar issues, the Omega 8500 and 9300 based movements were experiencing stoppages due to the DLC coated barrels having issues. The bulletin was issued in 2014 explaining the problem (again wear at the intersection of two parts of different materials), and giving the solution - redesigned mainspring barrels. Omega rolled out new barrel designs for each affected caliber over a period from July of 2014, to around February of 2016.

The next one was when they changed the balance staff material and the cap jewel system to make them anti-magnetic, there were wear issues on the balance staffs that would eventually cause the watches to stop. Those Nivachoc jewels were changed (2016), and a different oil was used in the balance jewels from then on. Someone had those shock settings returned after warranty service, and they sent them to me, so here are some photos:



Cal. 8400 G watch had to go in for service just 2 years after it was purchased new. The watch had started losing time, and then it would randomly stop even though it was being worn and was fully wound.



You can see the discolouration of the oils in the setting, from wear on the balance staff. This was across all the anti-magnetic movements, so all the 8500 series, 8700 series, 8800 series, and 9300 series.

In none of these cases did it affect every single watch out there, and I suspect that the 3861 will be the same. Some will make it to a "normal;" service interval, and some will not. Just like back when the 2500 issues were the big firestorm of the day here on WUS.

Again, these sorts of problems are certainly not unheard of, but the hyperbole surrounding the 3861 is certainly at a level I've not seen before. Everybody needs to take a breath, IMO. I understand the disappointment in spending the money on something, and not getting a product that works right. Doesn't matter if it's a watch, car, or new washing machine - it sucks and no one is saying that it doesn't, but it's not the end of the world either.

I can look at pretty much any movement and see things that change over time - some changes are big and some are not, but very few watch movement design remain static over time. There are always improvements being made, and in some cases movements are completely abandoned for new designs in a very short time. Ever wonder why the 157X series of Rolex movements were used for decades, and then when the 303X came along, they only stayed in production for about 10 years, and then was replaced with the 313X that lasted from 1988 until recently? You think that was because the 303X was a great movement?

Anyway, you guys can continue to rant on as if this is the only movement design that has failed in this way, but that is simply not the case.

Cheers, Al
 

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Which means that if you're heavy chronograph user you'd better go with a vertical clutch based watch, like this

Owned it for 3 years and it never missed a beat.
I've read over in Omega forums that a vertical clutch chronograph could also seize with heavy use; and a seized chronograph runner assembly for a vertical clutch can't be serviced and has to be totally replaced. In that thread Archer mentioned it's ok to run your chrono all the time as long as parts are available and inexpensive. Specifically to the 861/1861, which is a horizontal clutch chrono, parts that would need replacing from excess wear are readily available and not expensive.
 

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Archer, if that is so I will readily retract and sincerely apologise. Pls explain how I have misrepresented you?
I am not "seriously understating the issues" as you have alleged. What I've done is provide factual information on the causes and the solution. I've also provided context to illustrate that movements will have problems, and that companies will solve them.

I've also disproven your claim that no other mass produced movements have had faults that would stop the watch. There are many, and reading this forum you should know this being here since 2006 as the 2500 "stopping problem" was still ongoing as recently as 2012.

Also your presumption that every single watch made until recently will have stopped is clearly not true. A member stated in this very thread that he's had one for 3 years and it has run without problems.

Again, I understand this is disappointing, but I think keeping things in perspective is good.
 

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I am not "seriously understating the issues" as you have alleged. What I've done is provide factual information on the causes and the solution. I've also provided context to illustrate that movements will have problems, and that companies will solve them.

I've also disproven your claim that no other mass produced movements have had faults that would stop the watch. There are many, and reading this forum you should know this being here since 2006 as the 2500 "stopping problem" was still ongoing as recently as 2012.

Also your presumption that every single watch made until recently will have stopped is clearly not true. A member stated in this very thread that he's had one for 3 years and it has run without problems.

Again, I understand this is disappointing, but I think keeping things in perspective is good.
1. I guess it's a matter of interpretation - you did state that it was "not a big deal" and I do think this understates the issue. It is not a big deal to you, but it is to me, and to all of us who have had the watch stop.

2. Yes - you have disproven my claim about other movements stopping besides the 2500.

3. Actually I didn't presume every single 3861 watch made till now will have stopped - I presumed every single movement made till now has the inherent issue that could lead it to stop. But it indubitably has the mechanical/material issue whether it stops or not.

4. It is disappointing, perspective is good - but you surely must recognise that someone of modest means who has bought an expensive watch - costing more than his car - which then fails, has a different perspective than a world class watchmaker.

with respect, as ever
 
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