WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner

1 - 20 of 96 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Comrades,

I've noticed that while there have been a few individual discussions as to early-generation Komandirskie's, it is scattered across several threads. With this post, I would like to consolidate that information as sort of a master record - taking a hint from this older post: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-amphibia-300m-554022.html.

Also, I just wanted to create a post for people to post photos of their early-generation Komandirskie's for all of us to enjoy.

Any contributions would be welcome. I am happy to maintain the albums showing examples of each type, and will add any additional photos that people want to post.

I would like to thank comrades Afka, Amil, Geoff Adams, fcafca, Ham2, kev80e, mariomart, mroatman, OKEAH, and Schnurrp for having posted photos of their watches, which I have shamelessly stolen and re-used here. If you would like your photos removed, I would be happy to do so; just let me know. In the linked albums, I have tried to credit the photos to the original poster; if someone wants to claim a photo, again, just let me know.

[HR][/HR]
First Generation

It has been widely accepted that first generation Komandirskie's have dials that show 12/6/9, and have equilateral triangles indices for all other hours. Fortunately, there seem to be a reasonable number of these out there to set a knowledge base. A further unique aspect of this watch is that it employs "necktie"-style hour and minute hands, which became ubiquitous on Amphibias, but were never re-used on classic Komandirskie's.

Examples:
Mariomart - 2.jpg OKEAH - 2.jpg




Example PhotosDial ColorDial MarkingsHandsCaseCasebackMovement
Generation 1 Komandirskie - Album on ImgurWhite and Black12/6/9
Equilateral triangle indices
H: Necktie
M: Necktie
S: Arrow tip, no feathers
Stainless Steel

Exception: Photo Schnurrp - 2 shows gold/brass
Radial "ПРОТИВОУДАРНЫЕ" on top

Some show "2214" or "2234," others do not show movement number
Most examples are 2234

Occasional examples are 2214

[HR][/HR]
Generation 1.5(a) - Isosceles Triangles

I believe that the next iteration maintains the 12/6/9, but the triangle indices narrow to a slim isosceles triangle.
Mariomart - 4.jpg

These appear to be much more rare - only a handful have been posted. However, we have the been fortunate enough that a (hopefully contemporary!) poster has been discovered which shows this watch:
mroatman - 6.jpg

This poster shows an extremely unique set of hands, not seen on any other Komandirskie or Amphibia, before or after. It has been speculated that the poster was fake, showing a watch that never existed; however, comrade mroatman has recently discovered a photo of this elusive timepiece:

mroatman - 5.jpg

I don't know the significance of this with respect to the other examples I have been able to find. I find it difficult to believe that they ALL have replaced hands, and the sword style is much more common. I also find it strange that a poster showing only one of the most rare variants of this watch would have been made, but at this point, it's all just speculation.

I believe that these watches came next in time after the equilateral triangle examples above. The minor design variation to me is more of an incremental improvement as opposed to the re-design that we will later see. Additionally, this model appears powered by a 2214 movement.



Example PhotosDial ColorDial MarkingsHandsCaseCasebackMovement
http://imgur.com/a/ANsyr
White Only12/6/9
Isosceles triangle indices
H: Sword
M: Sword
S: Arrow tip, no feathers
Stainless Steel

Exception: Photo mroatman - 2 shows gold/brass.
Radial "ПРОТИВОУДАРНЫЕ" on top

No known examples in Latin script

All examples to date show 2214
All examples to date are 2214

[HR][/HR]
Generation 1.5(b) - Bar Indicies; Double-Bar at 6

The next type I wish to bring up is the somewhat more common model, showing only a 12, and bars for all other indices, with a double-bar at 6.
Ham2 - 1.jpg

I don't have any hard evidence for this, but I believe that this iteration of watch is the contemporary of the above-shown isosceles triangle model. My circumstantial evidence is that: (a) it maintains the same hands (poster and one example aside), including the no-feather arrow-tipped seconds hand which will be replaced by the "cupid" hand in subsequent models; and (b) the isosceles triangle model has only ever been shown in white, while this example has only ever been shown in black. The earliest generation was available in both colors. My thesis is that these Generations 1.5(a) and (b) were made concurrently, to maintain stock of watches in both colors, but the changed dial design was to further differentiate the styles. Additionally, this model has been found using the 2214 movement, while the later-described style does not.



Example PhotosDial ColorDial MarkingsHandsCaseCasebackMovement
Komandirskie - Double-Bars - Album on ImgurBlack Only12

Bar indices

Double-bar at 6
H: Sword
M: Sword
S: Arrow tip, no feathers

Exceptions: babadinga - 1 and 2 show necktie-style hands

mroatman - 1 shows the "cupid"-style seconds hand
Stainless Steel and Brass/Gold both seem to be about equal in numberRadial "ПРОТИВОУДАРНЫЕ" on top

No known examples in Latin script

Some examples show movement number, some do not
Examples exist of both 2214 and 2234

[HR][/HR]

Generation 2 - 1/12, 13/24 dial

The next type I wish to bring up is the model showing only all numbers, 1-12 and 13-24 inside that.
Geoff Adams - 1.jpg

I believe that this style came subsequent to the prior designs. The dial is a wholesale change over the prior design, and the seconds hand has now been replaced with the "cupid"-style.

We have evidence for this style from a catalog:
Catelog.jpg

I believe that this watch was relatively short-lived as well, and pretty soon, Vostok settled in to the ubiquitous 12/6/9 with bar indices.

Example PhotosDial ColorDial MarkingsHandsCaseCasebackMovement
Komandirskie 1-12/13-24 - Album on ImgurBlack Only1-12;
13-24
H: Sword
M: Sword
S: "cupid"-style

Exceptions: amil - 1 shows the no-feathers, arrow-tip seconds hand

kev80e - 1 shows the no-feathers, arrow-tip seconds hand
Stainless Steel and Brass/Gold both seem to be about equal in numberRadial "ПРОТИВОУДАРНЫЕ" on top

No known examples in Latin script

All examples to date show 2234
I believe that all examples to date are 2234

[HR][/HR]
I hope that anyone else with additional evidence will come forward! I would love to see an example that breaks all the rules, like a white dialed double-bar.

Please chip in with any additional knowledge you may have, and post your early-generation Komandirskie photos for all to enjoy!

I'd like to cite to the following forum posts as having provided the necessary info for the above:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/first-generation-christopol-komandirskie-ca-1966-%91necktie%92-%91amphibia%92-hands-variant-1504002.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/komandirskie-chistopol-1st-generation-2214-unknown-dial-792682.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/second-generation-christopol-komandirskie-ca-1960s-interesting-scarce-dial-3828458.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/old-chistopol-komandirskie-766631.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/rare-old-christopolkomandirskie-i-have-question-about-metal-bracelet-3874034.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/komandirskie-conundrum-3450498.html


Thank you.


- Brian
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Great work Brian :)

You were right to bring all the resources together in one place and I thank you for the time and effort you have given in doing so.

Cheers

And here is my happy little family :)
Thank you! Are you able to confirm my caseback/movement information? That was the hardest to compile since really, who looks at photos of casebacks? I'd appreciate if you can post that exact same photo but showing the caseback of each watch instead of the dial!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,002 Posts
Thank you! Are you able to confirm my caseback/movement information? That was the hardest to compile since really, who looks at photos of casebacks? I'd appreciate if you can post that exact same photo but showing the caseback of each watch instead of the dial!
I'll see what I can do tomorrow, it's nearly midnight here on the Aussie West coast. I'm pretty sure the early Komandirskies had 2234's in them as I think all mine hack with the crown extended.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,748 Posts
Nice work, comrade. Did you mean to say stainless steel for the case or chrome-plated brass? I don't believe I've ever seen a stainless steel case for these and I doubt Chistopol had the capability back then.

I would also like to ask if anyone has seen this date wheel with the large single digit font. I think it looks really cool and I wonder if it's an old version. Mine hacks despite the 2214 on the back.

Hands re-lumed by me.

Capture.JPG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I'll see what I can do tomorrow, it's nearly midnight here on the Aussie West coast. I'm pretty sure the early Komandirskies had 2234's in them as I think all mine hack with the crown extended.
Thank you, much appreciated! That is absolutely a fantastic collection. Now you just have to find the isosceles model with the funky cathedral hands!


Nice work, comrade. Did you mean to say stainless steel for the case or chrome-plated brass? I don't believe I've ever seen a stainless steel case for these and I doubt Chistopol had the capability back then.

I would also like to ask if anyone has seen this date wheel with the large single digit font. I think it looks really cool and I wonder if it's an old version. Mine hacks despite the 2214 on the back.

Hands re-lumed by me.
You are absolutely right re: chrome/brass vs. stainless steel. Oversight on my part!

For the font, look at photo Geoff Adams - 1, Ham2 - 1, and mroatman - 1 on the album. Is that what you are talking about? It seems like there was an even mix between bigger and smaller font sizes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,748 Posts
For the font, look at photo Geoff Adams - 1, Ham2 - 1, and mroatman - 1 on the album. Is that what you are talking about? It seems like there was an even mix between bigger and smaller font sizes.
Oh, I didn't notice all those very helpful photos. It appears that all but the newest of the first gen komandirskies had this date wheel design with the single digits occupying the entire window.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Oh, I didn't notice all those very helpful photos. It appears that all but the newest of the first gen komandirskies had this date wheel design with the single digits occupying the entire window.
I would be very interested to see a date-wheel comparison of 2214 vs 2234's. Maybe therein lies the difference?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,778 Posts
This is great, I was planning on trying to figure out the difference in these and you've answered my questions , your time and dedication is much appreciated.
Can anybody tell me where these ones fit in ? Between those in this thread and the komandirskie with a bezel ?
Screenshot_2017-04-27-22-44-35_kindlephoto-126392907.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,145 Posts
Super work, bpmurry!!

Schnurrp is right that it should be "chromed brass" rather than "stainless steel". In addition, the Generation 1.5(a) photo album points to the same photos as Gen 1 -- maybe the link is wrong?

But otherwise, this looks like an accurate and extremely-useful reference database. The numerous example images are particularly helpful.

Well done and thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,145 Posts
This is great, I was planning on trying to figure out the difference in these and you've answered my questions , your time and dedication is much appreciated.
Can anybody tell me where these ones fit in ? Between those in this thread and the komandirskie with a bezel ?
Good question, Kev, as I'm sure others are wondering.

Anytime you see this dial design with 12/6/9 and straight bar indices (shown below), and regardless of the case, you can be confident it comes *after* Brian's timeline, and is therefore Gen 3 or beyond. This was the most popular dial type, I'd say, and came in a range of colors (black, gold, + purple and red in different font) and at least eight different case types (283, 443, 783, 793, and all four chromed counterparts).


imageedit_2_3161491181.gif



This dial type also occasionally shows up bearing the Vostok brand (1, 2, 3) and has significantly better catalog evidence, so we could hazard a (pretty solid) guess that it came after the first two generations.

Though, come to think of it, that does drive home the point that we are largely lacking for dates in the early days of our timeline....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,002 Posts
Good question, Kev, as I'm sure others are wondering.

Anytime you see this dial design with 12/6/9 and straight bar indices (shown below), and regardless of the case, you can be confident it comes *after* Brian's timeline, and is therefore Gen 3 or beyond. This was the most popular dial type, I'd say, and came in a range of colors (black, gold, + purple and red in different font) and at least eight different case types (283, 443, 783, 793, and all four chromed counterparts).

This dial type also occasionally shows up bearing the Vostok brand (1, 2, 3) and has significantly better catalog evidence, so we could hazard a (pretty solid) guess that it came after the first two generations.

Though, come to think of it, that does drive home the point that we are largely lacking for dates in the early days of our timeline....
Here are some of my 3rd generation Komandirskies along with the equivalent civilian version sans red star.

20170428_150011a.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,748 Posts
Here are some of my 3rd generation Komandirskies along with the equivalent civilian version sans red star.

View attachment 11651842
Nice collection, comrade mariomart, I'm glad you posted this picture because you have the one on the left that is in a case that is seen occasionally but is it authentic? I don't know.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,002 Posts
Nice collection, comrade mariomart, I'm glad you posted this picture because you have the one on the left that is in a case that is seen occasionally but is it authentic? I don't know.
It's authentic, as shown in the 1976 Vostok catalog :)

Wostok1976_Page_055.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Super work, bpmurry!!

Schnurrp is right that it should be "chromed brass" rather than "stainless steel". In addition, the Generation 1.5(a) photo album points to the same photos as Gen 1 -- maybe the link is wrong?

But otherwise, this looks like an accurate and extremely-useful reference database. The numerous example images are particularly helpful.

Well done and thanks!
Album link is fixed. Thanks!

I've just taken notice that on some models, the star is blue, while on others, it's red. My first thought was that this was a result of fading, but I'm not so sure anymore. It seems every generation and dial type is affected by this, regardless of color.
Below are some examples of "blue" star Komandirskie's from the albums.

View attachment bpmurray - 1.jpg Ham2 - 2.jpg mroatman - 1.jpg Schnurrp - 3.jpg Geoff Adams - 1.jpg mroatman - 1.jpg Afka - 1.jpg dima100 - 1.JPG Ham2 - 1.jpg


Admittedly, I am a touch red/green colorblind, so I am not the best person to assess this, but to me, it looks like these "blue" stars are simply faded red? We have plenty of evidence of the red paint used on Soviet dials fading with time (a different factory, but 15j/17j Sturmanskie's). The third image above (your G1) seems to me to look the most "blue." I don't believe there is any catalog evidence for a blue-starred Komandirskie, and I have never seen one of this vintage in the wild with a nice bright blue star, but I would love to see an example if one exists.

This does seem to be an exclusively black dial phenomenon. I will hypothesize this: the red star needed to be painted on a white or gray substrate to show up on the black dial, essentially, primer. Over time, the red on these dials has faded, revealing the aged primer. This was either not required on white dialed watches because the red showed up clearly without a base layer, or the primer is white enough that it isn't nearly as visible once the red fades. Perhaps both?

Schnurrp - 1.jpg
 
1 - 20 of 96 Posts
Top