WatchUSeek Watch Forums banner

41 - 60 of 96 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,145 Posts
I would love if anyone with some personal experience in this could chime in. I could be totally wrong about all of this, and it would be great to get a first- or at least second-hand perspective.
Oh of my main "guys" in the Czech Republic regularly takes extra cases to the smelter in exchange for cash. I can't remember the specifics, but a 20-micron case in good condition had on the upper end of one solid gram of gold (!) and netted something like $20 (today's prices). And that's for *one case*. That can be a seriously lucrative practice, especially in areas where economies are depressed or where local currencies are unstable.

Of course, as you mention, 10-micron cases are half that, and many cases have at least some of the gold worn away by now (so could be even less). So you'd need a few decent early cases, or a lot of crappy older cases, to make it a real "business". But the payout is still much higher than what you calculated, so I'm not sure how all the math works out.

Thinking from a seller's perspective, the practice of case harvesting can be very attractive. Rather than dealing with listing on eBay, writing a description, taking/uploading photos, waiting for a buyer that may never come, dealing with shipping, responding to incessant buyer complaints, returns, lost packages, eBay taxes, etc., it'd be sooooo much easier just take your cases down to the smelter and get cold hard cash, in hand, on the spot. While I shudder to imagine millions upon millions of watches being melted down for scrap gold, I can certainly understand why.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,294 Posts
Well, it may be that I now own one of those beautiful old rare white dial (with the thinner indices) first gen Komandirskies in a rarely seen gold plated case which has escaped the clutches of the gold harvesters and smelters. On its way to me from Russia - the pics belong to the seller...










 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
Discussion Starter #43
Well, it may be that I now own one of those beautiful old rare white dial (with the thinner indices) first gen Komandirskies in a rarely seen gold plated case which has escaped the clutches of the gold harvesters and smelters. On its way to me from Russia - the pics belong to the seller...
Congratulations! That is quite a rare find indeed.

I wouldn't worry about the authenticity of the case - its condition is consistent with both the presumed age of the watch, and the condition of the dial as well.

From your pics, it certainly seems like it is a non-hacking 2214 - I don't see the spring to stop the balance wheel. Can you please confirm when you get it?

Post some pictures when it arrives!

- Brian
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,294 Posts
Thanks very much gents for your kind words! I've actually been watching this one for weeks but in the end this thread and my conversations on it eventually persuaded me to buy it. And I think David is a good seller, I trust his stuff. Brian, the watch was advertised as hacking, so I presume there is a 2234 movement inside, but I will confirm this when I receive the watch. As soon as I put a strap on it I'll post up a wrist shot, but I've got several pieces awaiting my attention to make ready for wearing and pics to be posted up on here :) I just haven't had the time. Glad you like this one. Are we sure this is a poor relume job(as stated in Dash's post on the other thread) - not that this bothers me - as the loom on this piece simply looks like a better preserved example of the lume I have on my other first generation piece which I'm certain is original ???
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,961 Posts
Pretty sure that is relumed Geoff. The lume looks cleaner than the dial and a bit 'green' to my eye. Nonetheless, a very nice watch.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,748 Posts
While we're on the subject of lume, I have observed on my two first gen. white dials that the lume is still strong enough to be useful in the dark! Anybody else observe this?

I have tried to picture this below. Also, the lume has a greenish tint, not showing very well in the pictures. There is not much lume left on these dials so I'm pretty sure they are not re-lumes. Also, they were taken out of storage and photographed without any "charging" which is why the hands on the left black dial, which I re-lumed with NoctiLumina, are not glowing very strongly. An early lume formula that was discontinued?

View attachment okl1.jpg

okl2.jpg

okl3.jpg
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,391 Posts
Comrades,

I've noticed that while there have been a few individual discussions as to early-generation Komandirskie's, it is scattered across several threads. With this post, I would like to consolidate that information as sort of a master record - taking a hint from this older post: https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/vostok-amphibia-300m-554022.html.

Also, I just wanted to create a post for people to post photos of their early-generation Komandirskie's for all of us to enjoy.

Any contributions would be welcome. I am happy to maintain the albums showing examples of each type, and will add any additional photos that people want to post.

I would like to thank comrades Afka, Amil, Geoff Adams, fcafca, Ham2, kev80e, mariomart, mroatman, OKEAH, and Schnurrp for having posted photos of their watches, which I have shamelessly stolen and re-used here. If you would like your photos removed, I would be happy to do so; just let me know. In the linked albums, I have tried to credit the photos to the original poster; if someone wants to claim a photo, again, just let me know.

[HR][/HR]
First Generation

It has been widely accepted that first generation Komandirskie's have dials that show 12/6/9, and have equilateral triangles indices for all other hours. Fortunately, there seem to be a reasonable number of these out there to set a knowledge base. A further unique aspect of this watch is that it employs "necktie"-style hour and minute hands, which became ubiquitous on Amphibias, but were never re-used on classic Komandirskie's.

Examples:
View attachment 11643762 View attachment 11643770




Example PhotosDial ColorDial MarkingsHandsCaseCasebackMovement
Generation 1 Komandirskie - Album on ImgurWhite and Black12/6/9
Equilateral triangle indices
H: Necktie
M: Necktie
S: Arrow tip, no feathers
Stainless Steel

Exception: Photo Schnurrp - 2 shows gold/brass
Radial "ПРОТИВОУДАРНЫЕ" on top

Some show "2214" or "2234," others do not show movement number
Most examples are 2234

Occasional examples are 2214

[HR][/HR]
Generation 1.5(a) - Isosceles Triangles

I believe that the next iteration maintains the 12/6/9, but the triangle indices narrow to a slim isosceles triangle.
View attachment 11643786

These appear to be much more rare - only a handful have been posted. However, we have the been fortunate enough that a (hopefully contemporary!) poster has been discovered which shows this watch:
View attachment 11643802

This poster shows an extremely unique set of hands, not seen on any other Komandirskie or Amphibia, before or after. It has been speculated that the poster was fake, showing a watch that never existed; however, comrade mroatman has recently discovered a photo of this elusive timepiece:

View attachment 11643818

I don't know the significance of this with respect to the other examples I have been able to find. I find it difficult to believe that they ALL have replaced hands, and the sword style is much more common. I also find it strange that a poster showing only one of the most rare variants of this watch would have been made, but at this point, it's all just speculation.

I believe that these watches came next in time after the equilateral triangle examples above. The minor design variation to me is more of an incremental improvement as opposed to the re-design that we will later see. Additionally, this model appears powered by a 2214 movement.



Example PhotosDial ColorDial MarkingsHandsCaseCasebackMovement
Komandirskie - Isosceles Triangles - Album on ImgurWhite Only12/6/9
Isosceles triangle indices
H: Sword
M: Sword
S: Arrow tip, no feathers
Stainless Steel

Exception: Photo mroatman - 2 shows gold/brass.
Radial "ПРОТИВОУДАРНЫЕ" on top

No known examples in Latin script

All examples to date show 2214
All examples to date are 2214

[HR][/HR]
Generation 1.5(b) - Bar Indicies; Double-Bar at 6

The next type I wish to bring up is the somewhat more common model, showing only a 12, and bars for all other indices, with a double-bar at 6.
View attachment 11643834

I don't have any hard evidence for this, but I believe that this iteration of watch is the contemporary of the above-shown isosceles triangle model. My circumstantial evidence is that: (a) it maintains the same hands (poster and one example aside), including the no-feather arrow-tipped seconds hand which will be replaced by the "cupid" hand in subsequent models; and (b) the isosceles triangle model has only ever been shown in white, while this example has only ever been shown in black. The earliest generation was available in both colors. My thesis is that these Generations 1.5(a) and (b) were made concurrently, to maintain stock of watches in both colors, but the changed dial design was to further differentiate the styles. Additionally, this model has been found using the 2214 movement, while the later-described style does not.



Example PhotosDial ColorDial MarkingsHandsCaseCasebackMovement
Komandirskie - Double-Bars - Album on ImgurBlack Only12

Bar indices

Double-bar at 6
H: Sword
M: Sword
S: Arrow tip, no feathers

Exceptions: babadinga - 1 and 2 show necktie-style hands

mroatman - 1 shows the "cupid"-style seconds hand
Stainless Steel and Brass/Gold both seem to be about equal in numberRadial "ПРОТИВОУДАРНЫЕ" on top

No known examples in Latin script

Some examples show movement number, some do not
Examples exist of both 2214 and 2234

[HR][/HR]

Generation 2 - 1/12, 13/24 dial

The next type I wish to bring up is the model showing only all numbers, 1-12 and 13-24 inside that.
View attachment 11643842

I believe that this style came subsequent to the prior designs. The dial is a wholesale change over the prior design, and the seconds hand has now been replaced with the "cupid"-style.

We have evidence for this style from a catalog:
View attachment 11643858

I believe that this watch was relatively short-lived as well, and pretty soon, Vostok settled in to the ubiquitous 12/6/9 with bar indices.

Example PhotosDial ColorDial MarkingsHandsCaseCasebackMovement
Komandirskie 1-12/13-24 - Album on ImgurBlack Only1-12;
13-24
H: Sword
M: Sword
S: "cupid"-style

Exceptions: amil - 1 shows the no-feathers, arrow-tip seconds hand

kev80e - 1 shows the no-feathers, arrow-tip seconds hand
Stainless Steel and Brass/Gold both seem to be about equal in numberRadial "ПРОТИВОУДАРНЫЕ" on top

No known examples in Latin script

All examples to date show 2234
I believe that all examples to date are 2234

[HR][/HR]
I hope that anyone else with additional evidence will come forward! I would love to see an example that breaks all the rules, like a white dialed double-bar.

Please chip in with any additional knowledge you may have, and post your early-generation Komandirskie photos for all to enjoy!

I'd like to cite to the following forum posts as having provided the necessary info for the above:
https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/first-generation-christopol-komandirskie-ca-1966-%91necktie%92-%91amphibia%92-hands-variant-1504002.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/komandirskie-chistopol-1st-generation-2214-unknown-dial-792682.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/second-generation-christopol-komandirskie-ca-1960s-interesting-scarce-dial-3828458.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/old-chistopol-komandirskie-766631.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/rare-old-christopolkomandirskie-i-have-question-about-metal-bracelet-3874034.html

https://www.watchuseek.com/f10/komandirskie-conundrum-3450498.html


Thank you.


- Brian
you are wrong. all wrong.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,294 Posts
you are wrong. all wrong.
Sorry, not good enough Amil. You need to explain why and what exactly is wrong, and put forwards your opinions and suggestions as to what you believe to be correct. Otherwise your comment is worthless. I'm hoping you can contribute some useful interesting information to the discussion...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,145 Posts
Are we sure this is a poor relume job (as stated in Dash's post on the other thread)
Well, there were some choice words in that other thread that perhaps I would not have written had I known the watch would end up in such an esteemed collection! So let's not say "poor" relumed job -- just relumed :)

But yes, I'm sure. David confirmed this for me, and you can see it's exactly the same as the other Komandirskie he has for sale (shown below). His watchmaker clearly does excellent work, very precise, though the color is not quite right in my opinion. (But as we found out with my Slava Amphibia, also from David, and also presumably relumed by the same watchmaker, this can be remedied).


Screen Shot 2017-05-05 at 11.20.36.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,294 Posts
Well, there were some choice words in that other thread that perhaps I would not have written had I known the watch would end up in such an esteemed collection! So let's not say "poor" relumed job -- just relumed :)

But yes, I'm sure. David confirmed this for me, and you can see it's exactly the same as the other Komandirskie he has for sale (shown below). His watchmaker clearly does excellent work, very precise, though the color is not quite right in my opinion. (But as we found out with my Slava Amphibia, also from David, and also presumably relumed by the same watchmaker, this can be remedied).


View attachment 11724298
Absolutely no problem Dash! Had I known I would have bought it anyway, lume isn't the most important thing to me. But I must say at first glance it had me fooled. As Mark says, when you look closely at the state of the lume compared to the surrounding dial it's not quite the same. Thank you for pointing it out. When I get the chance I'll test the lume on my other first gen piece as Paul suggests...

P.S. I think the colour of the new lume may just reflect its newness as compared that of the beautiful old piece with original lume you show. If there is a dfference in actual colour I can't see it, only the patina?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,145 Posts
P.S. I think the colour of the new lume may just reflect its newness as compared that of the beautiful old piece with original lume you show. If there is a dfference in actual colour I can't see it, only the patina?
Sorry for the confusion, both of those watches above are relumed, as confirmed by David. I was trying to show how similar they are, both in texture and color, done by the same watchmaker (he sure has a steadier hand than me).

Your other piece with equilateral triangles has the original lume, without a doubt. The lume is somehow creamier, whiter, less translucent, definitely not green, and perfectly aged. That watch is probably the piece I envy most in your collection, frankly. Hold on to that one! Unless you sell to me!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,294 Posts
Ah yes Dash, sorry, my misunderstanding! I can see what you mean now when I compare my 1st Generation piece against the two pics from David. I suppose it could be argued that the original lume might have started life as a little more green than it is now, having faded in colour over time, but I'm just mooting now, with no evidence :)

By the way, thank you very much for the kind words about my collection being esteemed :) I'm not sure I'd go that far :) especially when compared with several of the lads on here including yours -but I do consider it a decent workmanlike collection, which I I'm proud of.

I've checked Brian's opening post over, and I fail to see why it would be considered 'all wrong'. There may be areas where some detail might be changed if evidence were to be put forwards, but the post as a whole looks like a very useful resource to me...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
Discussion Starter #57
you are wrong. all wrong.
Hi amil!

I've seen your enormous komandirskie collection, and I would love to know your opinions, or any other facts you might have. I freely admit that my timeline may be off - I have no direct evidence of which pieces came before others, only circumstantial, which I did my best to interpret given what I had available. I freely accept that all of these may have been produced contemporaneously, or that there may have been at least substantial overlap!

I think that the watches and details about them that I've provided are accurate - there are enough of these out there, including from your collection, to believe that they are real, and to draw conclusions about what is "correct" for each model. If I am missing something, please let me know!

Thanks everyone for your help on this! I'm glad it's turning into a real robust discussion.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,668 Posts
Lets revive this old thread 🙂
I have a watch that, if I got that right, classified as 3rd generation above. It has 2234 (hacks). The back lists 2214 (I think Scnurrp mentioned same case as well). It has an inscription dated to 1972. It did not come from a reputable seller. It is possible the back was replaced given the mismatch. We know these watches were a also made with 2214 movements. I would expect the back cover caliber number to match the movement or be omitted. What is the consensus on this? Thanks.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,668 Posts
To chime in on the ‘gold collecting from the watches’ and whatever or not that was profitable given that you will get a few $ worth of gold from a watch. Just to give you some perspective:), when I left USSR in 1992, I have sold all my furniture for $7. I have sold the rest of my belongings for another 15-20$. Whatever I had and could not take with me (cause I only could take 2 bags) was sold for total under $50. This is what I had in my pocket when I had arrived to conquer the new wold with my wife and a kid. Quite scary these days but back then I was just fine. Pumped with the adrenaline from the excitement of the new possibilities in-front of me. Anyway, back to the issue, for several years (what we call Transition period), $1 was a lot of money and sadly enough many watches were sacrificed in this process...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
732 Posts
Discussion Starter #60 (Edited)
Thanks for reviving this old thread! I have some new information, and a new model to add.

First, a friend of mine has been researching these models extensively on watch.ru and through empirical evidence. He found the below transcript:

Watch from the Minister of Defense

"Commander" chronometers armed the Soviet army, Marshal Malinovsky. By order of the Minister of Defense, in 1965, Chistopol developed massive shock-proof watches for the commanders on the anchor stroke with phosphorescent arrows and, as the people said, dust-proof impenetrable. And so that the watchmakers in Chistopol did not get bored at all from the orders of the military-industrial complex, officials defined a quota for purely peaceful watches for them that could be sold in ordinary department stores, and allowed them to write on the Commander's dials.

Anchor, another anchor!

“We designed the watch in a terrible time trouble,” recalls one of the developers of the legend, Valentina Belova, the head of the bureau of external design. - Is it a joke? After all, they were ordered to be made by Marshal Malinovsky himself. The clock had to be the most accurate, because punctuality is necessary in the war, and the strongest. A novelty was a dial with luminous numbers. But the main highlight - the locking mechanism, or, in other words, the stopwatch. Designed it helped drawings of mechanisms used in military mines. Our group worked on the design of the case. We offered more than fifty options. Most of all, the minister liked the version with the star on the dial in the round case. For this we were encouraged with a premium of 50 rubles. Huge money - almost half the salary. It seems, still a portrait on a board of honor hung up.​


The important part was that the mechanism for early Komandirskie's was ALWAYS hacking. Here is a passport from 1965, specifying the stop-second:

1.png

1969 - stop function:

2.png

1973 - stop function:

3.png


He's concluded (and I fully agree) that the original 2214 movement came in two flavors -- non-hacking (civil) and hacking (Komandirskie). The hacking version of the movement was only renamed to 2234 in 1975. That said, the hacking lever was extremely fragile -- it is possible that a watch has an original movement, but that the tiny hack spring has bent slightly, rendering it useless. The only way to know would be to disassemble the movement, as it lies under the barrel bridge:

5.png

It also seems that the back cover for these early models should have only two words: shockproof, dust/water proof; ones marked with the movement number are later replacements.

Finally, this has emerged:

4.png

I believe this to be one of the "fifty options" referred to above. A second example was seen on watch.ru: ??????? ????? Watch.ru - ???????? ????????? ???????? - ????????????
 
41 - 60 of 96 Posts
Top