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Hi, Just joined yesterday! Can anyone tell me which watch Yuri Gagarin wore on his wrist in Vostok1. In Yuri Levenberg's book it says it was the Rodina and also on a couple of websites, but everyone else seems to think:think: it's the Sturmanskie. Can anyone tell me?
 

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Levenberg goes on in more detail about the Sturmanskie in

Levenberg 8, I believe, a smaller cataloge he published.

Saying the Rodina was the watch Gagarin wore in space was a mistake made essentially by Sotheby's and merely reported by Levenberg in L1, and corrected in later works.

No comfort to the person who won the watch originally at Sotheby's though.
 

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Hi, Just joined yesterday! Can anyone tell me which watch Yuri Gagarin wore on his wrist in Vostok1. In Yuri Levenberg's book it says it was the Rodina and also on a couple of websites, but everyone else seems to think:think: it's the Sturmanskie. Can anyone tell me?
hey that is the black shturmanskie i mentioned in an earlier thread but did not know where i saw it where did you get it.
 

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Hi, Just joined yesterday! Can anyone tell me which watch Yuri Gagarin wore on his wrist in Vostok1. In Yuri Levenberg's book it says it was the Rodina and also on a couple of websites, but everyone else seems to think:think: it's the Sturmanskie. Can anyone tell me?
Regarding that website; disregard everything that Chuck Maddox says about Soviet watch usage in space. For NASA/Omega he's the best on-line source available, but his research on matters Russian is evidently negligible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Re: Levenberg goes on in more detail about the Sturmanskie in

Levenberg 8, I believe, a smaller cataloge he published.

Saying the Rodina was the watch Gagarin wore in space was a mistake made essentially by Sotheby's and merely reported by Levenberg in L1, and corrected in later works.

No comfort to the person who won the watch originally at Sotheby's though.
Thanks for the info! :thanks I'm goin to have to search for a good white Sturmanskie now! So much info on this board! thanx.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Regarding that website; disregard everything that Chuck Maddox says about Soviet watch usage in space. For NASA/Omega he's the best on-line source available, but his research on matters Russian is evidently negligible.
Thanx for the info! To be honest I only bought the Rodina cos I thought it was the watch Gagarin wore, but now I'm glad I did, it is really nice to wear and I think very stylish!
 

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Regarding that website; disregard everything that Chuck Maddox says about Soviet watch usage in space. For NASA/Omega he's the best on-line source available, but his research on matters Russian is evidently negligible.
He does not seem even the slightest bit interested in russian watch information. I know someone very knowledgable on russian watches from the Ukraine who sent him some stuff with evidence and other bits and pieces in the hope that he would provide some good information about soviet space watches. the reply he recieved was quite rude and he was told that his information was wrong despite clear evidence to the contrary?? he likes his omegas and wants to think that the soviets mainly wore omegas in space too, because soviet watches were not good enough (this was basically the answer he got to his email). I liked his site untill i was asked to explain the email because it was so rude that guy form the Ukraine could not understand it. I have not been back since.
 

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Hello,

Was looking for something else, and I happened upon this thread...

Regarding that website; disregard everything that Chuck Maddox says about Soviet watch usage in space.
Indeed, I've largely only gone by what I've read in a scant few publications. In the spirit of open disclosure, Soviet watch's aren't the primary or even secondary focus of my collection.

I do own a Seconda 17 Jewel Chronograph which I purchased about a year ago and would like to learn more about that and other models which the Soviet, and now Russian, space program has used. I realize that the Soviet Union folded before Fortis became involved in the space program in Russia, but I also own 4 Fortis Cosmonaut Chronographs at least three of the models have been utilized in Russian space missions as best as I've been able to determine (I'm not certain that the Lemania c.1873 based model ever flew)...

Please feel free to enlighten me, preferably directly via email as I am not over here on Watch-U-Seek much (I am stretched pretty thin)... I have absolutely no problem updating my website with new information if it's presented to me clearly, especially if it has sources that can be verifiable. I prefer to cite sources whenever possible, if not I'll present the information in the manner "I've been told by certain people that xxxxxx.", etc.

I think that is reasonable.

For NASA/Omega he's the best on-line source available,
Frankly, I wouldn't even claim that. There are people out there with far closer contact with NASA than I have, and other people (well sometimes the same people) who have done more extensive searching of NASA's website (and other sources) that I have.

but his research on matters Russian is evidently negligible.
Depending upon which topic you gent's are talking about, and I'm assuming it's the Ed White article I wrote some six years ago, the main topic of the article was Mr. White's Speedmaster, not the Soviet space program and it was written over six years ago.

I have no problems whatsoever including an addendum and or making a correction and citing the person as informing me of the facts at hand as I have numerous times in other articles. I consider myself a student on the topics I have written about, the difference between myself and many other collectors is I share my notes in a public fashion, and they are replete with corrections, clarifications and addendum's as necessary.

My email address is public, well-known and emails sent to it, if they aren't rejected by spam filters are responded to courteously as quickly as I can do so.

In case you're not aware of my email address it's [email protected] ...

Cheers and Good Hunting!

-- Chuck
 

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Hello,

Was looking for something else, and I happened upon this thread...
-- Chuck
Welcome to the forum Chuck!

Glad to see you here, and I hope you participate in a lot of informative discussions.

I have been to your site many times and enjoy the info about Speedmasters. I don't own one, but hopefully I will add a vintage
Speedmaster Pro to my collection one day.

I think we can all mutually benefit from the exchange of information and views, just so long as it isn't my view - as I don't know much at all.

Hopefully those that do will join in!
 

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He does not seem even the slightest bit interested in russian watch information.
I wouldn't categorize my interest in Russian watches that way.

I will be frank, and I am earnest when I say that Russian watches are not my primary nor secondary focus in watch collecting. However, I would not say I have no interest in Russian watch information at all.

I do own a Seconda 17 Jewel Chronograph which I purchased about a year ago and would like to learn more about that and other models which the Soviet, and now Russian, space program has used. I also own 4 Fortis Cosmonaut Chronographs at least three of the models have been utilized in Russian space missions as best as I've been able to determine (I'm not certain that the Lemania c.1873 based model ever flew) and I also own a pair of the "Stratoliner" Lemania 5100 models which were previously made by Fortis and may have been the "jumping off point" for the Fortis Cosmonaut models... I'm sure it's small potatoes to the interest and collections many/most/all of you have, However...

I am interested in learning and knowing more about which watches have been used by the Soviet and now Russian Space agencies throughout their histories. I wouldn't mind knowing more about watches used in Soviet and Russian Air Forces too. I'm not so much into dive watches, nor in general civilian watches as they are notably outside my main sphere's of interest. I have had to set some limits to my chronograph addiction to keep it from getting any more out of hand than it already is. Unfortunately my time and my finances are finite, I wish it weren't though!

I know someone very knowledgable on russian watches from the Ukraine who sent him some stuff with evidence and other bits and pieces in the hope that he would provide some good information about soviet space watches.
The only communication I recall having had with anyone from Russia or the Former Soviet Union SSR's on the topic was someone who posted in the TimeZone Omega forum at least three or four years ago. This individual, who's "handle" escapes my memory posted some some rather rude posts in the forum, tirades really, let's just say the phrase that I remember is ,,Every Soviet Schoolchild knew/knows that Yuri Gagarin wore xxx!,,. I asked this individual if he would point me to a printed source for this information so I could cite it as a source and I never received a reply. [shrugs shoulders]

When the information I based my original text had been published and citable, and the only thing to contend against it is some anonymous person who wouldn't/couldn't point me to a source for the information when politely asked... The person posted under a non-de-plume, did not provide an email address and did not respond to my query for elaboration and published sources.

the reply he recieved was quite rude and he was told that his information was wrong despite clear evidence to the contrary??
I don't know who this individual from the Ukraine is/was, the only time's I am rude is when I have been provoked or am treated in a rude fashion myself, and I have posted addendum's, corrections and mea culpa's publicly in the past. I have no qualms about doing them in the future as needed/appropriate. There is a reason why I have always posted under my actual name and include my email address in my posts and on my webpage. Believe me when I tell you I don't do it to receive SPAM email [which I get tonnes of].

I strongly doubt I told anyone their information was wrong, especially when I would have no means to back up such a statement. I may well tell people that I need to have information that is citable so I can include the source of said information. I'd think that is an understandable distinction.

he likes his omegas
Yes, I do like my Omega's, I'd sell them and collect something else if I didn't!

However, I'd hasten to add that I am not always especially enamoured with Omega... especially their current management (Read the paragraph that starts with "What the hell is going on at Omega!"), Their Quality Control, their corporate direction and the manner in which they have marketed "the moonwatch" as "the only watch worn on the moon" when it's very easy to prove that it was not.

I don't think anyone will seriously accuse me of being a mouthpiece for Omega's PR department:

[Photo snagged from 20th Century Fox's "Planet of the Apes", embellishment, by myself]

[Moderator note: you might have to edit those links above (and elsewhere in this post) if they break forum guidelines for posting links to other forums where watch discussions are held. I do not mean to break the guidelines, just illustrate my point. I contacted eptaz (moderator of the WUS Omega Forum and he said that such links are ok, if they are not, axe them as you see fit.]

and wants to think that the soviets mainly wore omegas in space too,
Not that anyone here necessarily cares (or should care) what I think...
For what it's worth, that is not what I think.

It's my understanding that Omega chrongraph's were difficult if not nigh impossible for Soviet Cosmonauts to source at the very least until the timeframe of the Apollo-Soyuz Test Project. We have several pictures of Cosmonaut Alexei Leonev wearing an Omega Flightmaster in official photos during the ASTP era...




But, even then we don't know if the latter image was taken during the mission (which I tend to doubt) or in the training leading up to the mission, it seems plausible that he may have worn that watch on that mission, but I don't know that he did. I've also seen it published in several places that Soviet Cosmonauts coveted Omega Chronographs because it was what their American counterparts used.

None of which equates to any Soviet or Russian Cosmonaut wearing an Omega timepiece without other corroborating evidence. It might have happened, but I don't know that it did except for those occasions when it has been documented. And the only instance that I think it's been well documented was with one post-Soviet mission in Kesaharu Imai's "Time Capsule" book.

because soviet watches were not good enough
I strongly doubt I said that.

Soviet made watches have obviously been used on Soviet Space Missions, and unless they have failed during said mission, (and I have no information to lead me to believe they have ever had any problems with their timepieces), thus they have obviously been "good enough". At least until someone provides some evidence to the contrary.

(this was basically the answer he got to his email).
Again, I strongly doubt I said that.

I liked his site untill i was asked to explain the email
That's your choice. Sounds like there is not much I can do about that I'd guess.

because it was so rude that guy form the Ukraine could not understand it. I have not been back since.
The dialogue I remember was in the the TZOF, I don't remember the "Handle" the fellow used, but his initial post there read more as a tirade than what has been presented here, I responded with a request for sources and I didn't receive any.

I would also mention that about a month ago, I received an email with a load of pictures and a text description of various watches which have a strong heritage in both the Soviet Space program and the Soviet Air Force. I was very excited to get this information and replied to him that I thought the information was flatly excellent, should be published and I knew people who would love to have him write an article on this topic that I'd love to hook him up with.

I sent an email to that effect and never received a reply from from the fellow. Finding this thread today will prompt me to resend my original message in hopes that it will get through to him this time. For I found his emailed information to be fascinating and something I'd really like to see in print.

Also on a related topic... News that a Seiko Automatic was worn in Space a full 10 years prior to the Sinn Space One (which has claimed to have been the first automatic chronograph worn in space since that time) was posted over on the TZ Public Forum about a month ago too. I contacted that poster as well, and am looking forward to seeing that story told in a print publication sometime soon.

So, [and I'm sorry if this post is overly long, but I felt it warranted] to sum up...

While the primary focus of my collection are Chronographs by Omega, Heuer, Porsche Design, Tissot, Longines, Fortis, Sinn, Gallet, Zodiac, and a secondary focus on Bullhead chronographs and chronographs of other more obscure brands, I do have an interest in Russian watches (primarily chronographs and those used by the Soviet/Russian Space Agency and Air Forces), but at this time it is at best fledgling. Nothing wrong with having a new frontier to explore and learn about I'd think.

My existing knowledge on the topic of Soviet/Russian watches is scant at best, I've posted what I've read and can cite from print publications that I have and I'll be the first to admit my library is not extensive on the topic of Soviet/Russian timepieces. If anyone has pointers to magazine articles and or books that may be enlightening on the topic of watches used by the Soviet/Russian Space/AF [especially if sources for purchase (I'm fond of Amazon.com) are provided] please feel free to email me.

I'll be happy to revise my articles as appropriate, and I prefer to have information cited whenever possible.

But note, with my personal (non-hobby life) obligations, my other hobby commitments (including moderation of several forums), email, blog, and other demands, I will likely not have enough surplus time to participate or even read the posts in this forum often. For what it's worth, I don't get over to the WUS Omega forum often enough either, I'm just stretched too thin. Please feel free to drop me a line via email, I'll try to get back to you as soon as everything else permits!

Cheers and Good Hunting everyone!

-- Chuck

P.S. At the moment, I'm working on a write up on the use of Fortis chronographs within the Russian Space Program, and would love to hear any thoughts folks would have on that topic. -- C
 

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Hello Jack, thank you for the welcome!

Welcome to the forum Chuck!
Hello Jack, thank you for the welcome!

Glad to see you here, and I hope you participate in a lot of informative discussions.
Gosh, I hope I can find some time to do so, but I have to tell you I'm often stretched so thin you can see light through me, and I'm John Candy sized!

I have been to your site many times and enjoy the info about Speedmasters. I don't own one, but hopefully I will add a vintage Speedmaster Pro to my collection one day.
The nice thing about vintage Speedies is that there are bucket's of them out there, and plenty of varieties as well, so unless you are seeking a model which is rare or in high-demand, you can usually take your time and wait for the right one to come along.

I think we can all mutually benefit from the exchange of information and views, just so long as it isn't my view - as I don't know much at all.
I have been collecting watches for only a relatively short time (January 1999), and I still consider myself a student at the topic at hand. Consider my site as my personal notes from my travels and explorations.

I wouldn't know about your knowledge base, but I can tell you that my personal knowledge on Russian watches is certainly finite, and likely trails you by some distance.

Hopefully those that do will join in!
Otherwise, I'd 'spect it'd get boring!

Cheers!

-- Chuck
 

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I will make this very short. Thankyou for your reply Chuck. I appriciate it very much. I only recieved this information second hand as i think i made clear and it is very nice to see the other side to this argument. It is possible that this is the guy you spoke to on the forum as i only heard this info seconhand i can not be 100% sure that the conversation took place over email. If you have ever spoken to the guy i speak of then it is quite possible that he may have rubbed you the wrong way with large sweeping statemets that include some blunt digs as he has a tendency to do this even in our conversations. I always keep an open mind and like to hear both sides, the impression i recieved from my previous conversations was that your mind was rather closed. It is refreshing to see that this is not the case and i will not be so quick to judge on secondhand information next time.
 

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I will make this very short. Thankyou for your reply Chuck. I appriciate it very much. I only recieved this information second hand as i think i made clear and it is very nice to see the other side to this argument. It is possible that this is the guy you spoke to on the forum as i only heard this info secondhand i can not be 100% sure that the conversation took place over email. If you have ever spoken to the guy i speak of then it is quite possible that he may have rubbed you the wrong way with large sweeping statemets that include some blunt digs as he has a tendency to do this even in our conversations. I always keep an open mind and like to hear both sides, the impression i recieved from my previous conversations was that your mind was rather closed. It is refreshing to see that this is not the case and i will not be so quick to judge on secondhand information next time.
I would also like to appologise to anyone else that I have given the wrong impression of Chuck too, I think that both sides of the story are now quite clear. I was only reporting on what had been sent to me and would like appologise to both Chuck and anyone else who I may have influenced with my post for jumping the gun. I should be more careful about the information that I recieve from people and taking it at face value. I feel very bad about this incident.
 

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I will make this very short. Thankyou for your reply Chuck.
I'll try to keep this on point too. Thank you for taking the time to reply.

I appriciate it very much. I only recieved this information second hand as i think i made clear and it is very nice to see the other side to this argument.
Thank you for understanding that there are often more than one way to look at a situation. Even then I saw what transpired way back then as more of a discussion than an argument.

It is possible that this is the guy you spoke to on the forum as i only heard this info seconhand i can not be 100% sure that the conversation took place over email.
It's been a solid four years, as best as I can remember, and I get _a lot_ of email and am pretty active on several boards. It's _possible_ that some of the finer points of what I remember are blurred or occurred slightly different than my memory. After a while it's like watching a Merry-Go-Round at an amusement park for a couple of hours, it all seems to blend together.

I will say that it doesn't sound very likely at all that I would flatly state someone was _wrong_. The information I have posted is based on on my research and published and cited information. If there is other information with published sources I'd be happy to post that information and cite the source alongside the existing information. I asked for additional information but did not receive any.

I'll point out in the Ed White article I note in the passage about Yuri Gagarin a couple of different theories as to the specific brand of watch used, and say I don't _know_ what Mr. Gagarin wore. I also say in the next paragraph that "The Russian-made watches were reliable and accurate, although Russian cosmonauts reportedly later coveted the Omega Speedmaster worn by their American rivals."

It would seem to me that I profess that I don't know which story is closest to what happened and I make a good faith effort to mention them all, even providing links (which have since become broken, sigh) to pages with those theories. I don't have a horse in that contest, I don't have any favorites... Rodina, Sturmanskije, Poljot... [shrugs shoulders] I don't own an example of any of them and would simply be happy to know for certain that one of them (and which specific one) was actually used!

I'll also point out that in the passage about Alexei Leonov, I note "Note: Leonov later would be a member of the Apollo-Soyuz Test Flight (ASTP) and wore an Omega Flightmaster at the very least during the ramp up to the ASTP...", with a link to pictures of Mr. Leonov wearing said Flightmaster.

So you should be able to understand my confusion when I read that I like "think that the soviets mainly wore omegas in space too, because soviet watches were not good enough" when I have clearly stated what I have on my page and I did not even state that Mr. Leonov actually wore a Flightmaster on the ASTP mission, only during the ramp up to that mission.

If you have ever spoken to the guy i speak of then it is quite possible that he may have rubbed you the wrong way with large sweeping statemets that include some blunt digs as he has a tendency to do this even in our conversations.
I don't know if this is the same person or not, sound's like it might well be. But we never spoke either in person, phone or IM/Skype/etc. our interactions were electronic and text/HTML in format. If he posted in that manner and when asked for collaborating did not advance any, I likely responded with skepticism.

I always keep an open mind and like to hear both sides, the impression i recieved from my previous conversations was that your mind was rather closed.
In my mind, a citation in a published book or magazine has more weight than the typing of an anonymous person who goes on a rant and when asked for additional information isn't forthcoming. That may seem somewhat less than ,,open minded,, but if I were _that_ open minded I'd believe what the Weekly World News says, and be really susceptible to all those Spam email's I had mentioned previously.

It is refreshing to see that this is not the case and i will not be so quick to judge on secondhand information next time.
If you just keep in mind there is likely a second viewpoint on any topic at hand, that's fine.

I will be the first to admit I have opinions and I am not typically shy about sharing them. I do try to differentiate my expressed opinions from what is demonstrable/citable fact, though. I am also not shy about debating/discussing/exploring finer points when appropriate, and I try to cite the material which supports my viewpoint whenever possible and time/space/duties permit. I am open to other theories/idea's, but supporting information is the _traction_ necessary to shift existing understanding (with their already established supporting information/citations).

In other words, an annotated/documented/cross-referenced viewpoint will typically trump a viewpoint without such support. The better the sources the better the support.

Thank you for taking the time to reply, I do look forward to advancing my knowledge base as time goes on.

Cheers and Good Hunting!

-- Chuck

P.S. In looking through my "Ed White" page, I noticed that I haven't updated it with pictures/descriptions of the Omega "Gemini 4 - 40th Anniversary" Speedmaster Professional... A watch which I own an example of. I'll probably be updating the article in the near future to add a passage on that watch. If someone has information, preferably with links to support said information about which model watch was first in Space, drop me an email. I'll strive to include it in the revised document. Thanks in advance! -- Chuck
 

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Hi, Just joined yesterday! Can anyone tell me which watch Yuri Gagarin wore on his wrist in Vostok1. In Yuri Levenberg's book it says it was the Rodina and also on a couple of websites, but everyone else seems to think:think: it's the Sturmanskie. Can anyone tell me?
As russian press writes, first watch in space were from First Watch Factory...
It's known as Poljot. But now this factory - many small firms like Volmax or any other, thich sales watches under this name... And Shturmanskie - only one Volmax brand, so exact shturmanskie one's cannot be "first in space". Firm were started only 15-20 years ago...
 

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As russian press writes, first watch in space were from First Watch Factory...
It's known as Poljot. But now this factory - many small firms like Volmax or any other, thich sales watches under this name... And Shturmanskie - only one Volmax brand, so exact shturmanskie one's cannot be "first in space". Firm were started only 15-20 years ago...
First Moscow Watch Factory started making a watch called Shturmanskie in the 1940 decade for the Soviet Air Force, and was making watches with that name for the Soviet Airforce until the 1990's. Long before Volmax ever existed, this watch became a legend. See the article:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/306982/message/1098919234/A+Brief+History+of+Soviet+Space+Watches

Volmax merely copied that name (or stole it?) to exploit the legend of the fisrt space watch which was a Shturmanskie.
 

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First Moscow Watch Factory started making a watch called Shturmanskie in the 1940 decade for the Soviet Air Force, and was making watches with that name for the Soviet Airforce until the 1990's. Long before Volmax ever existed, this watch became a legend. See the article:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/306982/message/1098919234/A+Brief+History+of+Soviet+Space+Watches

Volmax merely copied that name (or stole it?) to exploit the legend of the fisrt space watch which was a Shturmanskie.
Volmax - was a part of Poljot. Now it's just a firm that takes and use Shturmanskie and other brands. Most workers and management from Poljot, so legally they can own this brands, but how is it really - hard to say. :(

Poljot now is bildings with baths and few working machines... Small firms making watch orders from old (made in USSR) 3133 engines with customer logos. Maybe only Volmax really making something new and intresting. That's why shturmanskie from it is much better than "first space watch" from doesn't working Poljot...

I find watch like this from Volmax http://www.solod.com/poljot/White_extreme_alarm_Aviator_259.html much better than Poljot like http://www.solod.com/poljot/Classical_Russian_Chronograph_Sweat_Time_272.html

And let's "first space watch" find it's new owner if old one do something like shown on link before...
 
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