Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Unfortunately, The cheapest true guilloche dials you can get on a new watch are made by RGM. These are both well made watches with nice looking dials, but they are not guilloche.

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Unfortunately, The cheapest true guilloche dials you can get on a new watch are made by RGM. These are both well made watches with nice looking dials, but they are not guilloche.

I'm referring to a guilloche pattern, not the process in which it is made. I think you are distinguishing between mechanically engraved guilloche vs. stamped guilloche.

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Limes, Nivrel?

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Limes, Nivrel?

I believe that is clous de Paris pattern.

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Frederique Constant has some nice looking stamped dials that won't break the bank...

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Frederique Constant has some nice looking stamped dials that won't break the bank...

qft

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Limes is the first thing that popped into my mind.

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Seiko srp005 is an affordable I have had my eyes on

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Is the alternative just called "stamped," or is there a fancy word for it?

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Is the alternative just called "stamped," or is there a fancy word for it?

Embossed?

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

SARB065. Might have been mentioned but didn't read the thread, just wrote this down after reading the title

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

SARB065. Might have been mentioned but didn't read the thread, just wrote this down after reading the title

Would you believe "no"? What is this place coming to when it takes 17 replies to get to the meat and bones: A SARB065

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Tissot Le Locle:

Hamilton Jazzmaster Viewmatic:

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Tissot Le Locle:

I'm generally not a fan of Roman Numerals on a watch face, but I've always loved this example, and its "homage" guilloche. ;-)

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Bonjour

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Très belle

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Having spent 15+ years as a precision engineer I am fascinated by techniques such as guilloche,
For anyone interested in seeing a master at work on a Rose engine lathe, this is worth a look:

Roger studied under George Daniels, one of the few men of recent years who could make a watch by traditional methods, in it's entirety.
Unfortunately, most Guilloche work that is not stamped is now done like this:

A c.n.c. machine has no 'soul' but can knock out a dial in minutes rather than hours.

If anyone is interested in the old ways of watch manufacture by hand, the film 'The watchmakers Apprentice' will be worth a look, it is the story of George Daniels and his apprentice, Roger Smith.
I think the release date is June 2015, definitely one to look out for!

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

....<snip>...
A c.n.c. machine has no 'soul' but can knock out a dial in minutes rather than hours.
....<snip>...

Guess my Franck Muller was born from something with no soul.
- Does that make it a zombie watch ???

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

For a $100 I rather like this Parnis hand-wind.

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

For a $100 I rather like this Parnis hand-wind.

It's a pretty watch and a decent value in affordable segment, but...
- not a true guilloche (stamped\printed)
- not a true GMT (dual time complication here)
- not a true moonphase (day\night)
- not heat blued hands (painted)

I think overall "guilloche" pattern does make for a more interesting dial on some watches, but since we are all here as fans of watchmaking - it is important to differentiate between machined/engraved technique and printed\stamped. Both may produce a pattern, but that is kind of like saying that mechanical watch, quartz and iphone all tell time. The method how you get there is important. Same for Cloisonne dial made using traditional application of gold silver patterns on the dial, vs printing an image with gold lines in it.

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

orient star has some new guilloche dial versions..

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

orient star has some new guilloche dial versions..

Did you have any model numbers?

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

I'm usually plugging for Christopher Ward

$495USD for quartz and $900 for an automatic.

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

There is a nice article on guilloche dials here:

Surface Value: Guilloche - Page 1 - WatchWow

In watchmaking, and in particular dial making, guilloche does not simply refer to the pattern, but the general process of mechanically engraving the surface.

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

There is a nice article on guilloche dials here:

Surface Value: Guilloche - Page 1 - WatchWow

In watchmaking, and in particular dial making, guilloche does not simply refer to the pattern, but the general process of mechanically engraving the surface.

I liked the article. There are some really fine examples. I was a bit surprised by the Ralph Lauren.

Regarding guilloche techniques:

"...Specialising in machine guillochage, Audemars Piguet has 13 machines in all, 12 of which are solely for production and one for R&D, tests and small series. Each machine produces approximately one dial per hour..."

If AP is allowed to use a robot controlled CNC machine that produces one dial per hour, how is that any more legitimate than another watchmaker using a robot controlled machine to press metal into a guilloche pattern? What about laser etching? Where do you draw the line on what constitutes true guilloche?

I think it's fair to differentiate between guilloche techniques, and to favor one over the other. People will pay more for craftsmanship and art. There really isn't anything more special about how AP creates a guilloche dial than how Tissot does. Neither is craftsmanship, nor anywhere near equivalent to creating guilloche patterns by hand controlled lathes.

I'd like to make a parallel to knitting. Is the machine knitted product any less knitted than the hand knitted one? On the other hand, if you want something hand knitted, will any machine knitted product suffice?

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

You can get a very nice dial on the Seagull 819.368 with a clone of the ETA 2824-2 movement in the form of a ST2130 for $230.

 

I'm on the market for something new and stunning, any other ideas?

i've only seen how AP does it, so i'll go with that

 

and i just found how VC does it

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

All I get from this is that the op doesn't want to acknowledge that stamping a pattern isn't the same as engraving a pattern.

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

All I get from this is that the op doesn't want to acknowledge that stamping a pattern isn't the same as engraving a pattern.

Perhaps te OP understands better the difference between a pattern (guillioché) and the method (embossing, vs CNC single point engraving, vs manual engine turning).

I will repeat, engine turning was a way to pump out faster, cheaper decoration than traditional hand engraving, with a huge reduction in skill and increase in 'souless' repeatability.

This Swiss BS about it being 'art' is simply an attempt to create imaginary exclusivity. They were designed for unskilled manual labor operators.

I won't deny however that single point pattern engraving looks far, far better than embossing. I will simply deny that Swiss engine-turners have exclusive license to 'guilloche'.

The risk that I do see if people go too deep down the hand made rabbit hole is that things get taken to the ridiculous like in certain bespoke clothes. Hand stitching is worshipped. In some cases (button holes) it is superior, but in some stitches machine made is superior. However an inferior quality hand stitch with some unevenness is still considered more desirable. To the point that there are now automatic sewing machines that deliberately introduce errors to simulate hand stitching. This is absurd.

This over reliance on possessive Swiss misinterpretion of industrial techniques can lead down that path...

Also don't get me started on Thierry Stern's proclamations on enamel artists. Instantly lost respect for PP's métiers d'art stuff after that...

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

Cool videos, Memphis1, thanks. VC remains my fantasy watch.

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

I like this Raymond Weil dial. I can admit it wasn't carved, but the stamping/embossing seems well done to me and I still get an interesting dial.

 

I just want to mention my Humble Svet from the U.S.S.R. Or maybe its a Start. 1955. Black all over, guilloche dial. Yes, its vintage, yes, its beautifully made. I believe its hand done. Sorry, no pics, Im on a friends computer..but you could google them. Im a true believer in Soviet design, both of mechanism and of dials. It was also inexpensive, 8 /9 years ago.

Just my 2 cents...

 

What Guilloche now means to me: 15 minutes of my life I'll never get back reading all 7 pages of this thread!

I've got to get some OCD meds...!

 

...how you know you are a true WIS!
[emoji1]

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

If it makes anyone on this thread feel any better, even the dial on the Vacheron Constantin Overseas is stamped.

 

Re: Guilloche Dials: Best pick at a decent price point?

If it makes anyone on this thread feel any better, even the dial on the Vacheron Constantin Overseas is stamped.

Serious?

Semantics aside, that actually makes me feel worse.

The website that takes expensive stuff apart and looks at finishing on the undersides refers to it as engraved. Perhaps CNC rotary engraved like the Frank Mueller? The pattern could be engine turned with a clou-de-Paris variant if they chose.

Cut patterns are usually crisper and depending on surface treatment can reflect the light more dramatically.