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Hey guys,

I'm in the market for a Hamilton and saw that they are putting in a modified ETA movement(H series) now as opposed to the original ETA movements. I've read that the H movements achieve a higher power reserve by dropping the bph, but not only that, they also replaced a lot of the internals with cheaper parts.

I just wanted to know if there is any truth to this.

Thanks.
 

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I believe any notion of a lot of the internals being replaced with cheaper parts is unsubstantiated. I have not seen any claim to that effect or seen that proven to be true. The bph is less so the second hand sweep is not quite as smooth as ETA, but for increased power reserve I am fine with that. I have two H-10 powered Hamilton watches (one is for sale) and they have both been EXTREMELY accurate.

I just did a side by side comparison of my Squale (ETA 2824-2) and my Khaki (H-10) and the difference in the sweep is barely detectable in my opinion. And from the exhibition case back of the Hamilton the parts look pretty robust to me.
 
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I have two H-10 powered Hamilton watches (one is for sale) and they have both been EXTREMELY accurate.
This is something I've seen reported often. That would be reason for me to prefer the H movement which is of course based on the ETA.
 

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From everything I've read, the BPH isn't lowered in order to achieve the higher reserve time, that is accomplished by an improved main spring. In fact, from the specs I've read on watchbase.com, the BPH rate of the H movements are the same as the ETA movement it is derived from. In the case of the H21, that's 28800 BPH. For the H10, that's 21600 BPH.

From all the reviews I've been able to find, the H movements are actually considered to be upgrades of the ETA base movements, not downgrades.

EDIT: So, after digging a little deeper, I now think I understand the evolution oh the H10. It seems like it was derived from the ETA C07.111 which is also known as Tissot and Certina Powermatic 80. The 80 in the name denotes the power reserve. This movement was derived from the ETA 2824-2 and in order to attain the 80 hour power reserve, the frequency was dropped to 21,600 BPH.

The H21 and H31 still retain the 28800 BPH of the ETA movements they were derived from though.
 

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Maybe I got unlucky but my h10 movement Hamilton wasn't particularly accurate. It was running around -5 s/d when I got it. After breaking in for a month or so it got worse, -8 s/d. Nothing impressive, albeit not terrible either.

In hindsight, I'd rather the stock 2824-2. At least it's easier to regulate.


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I think the H movements are improved versions of the base ETA movement.

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I have 3 H-series watches and they are incredibly accurate. Much more so than the standard ETA calibers. I've never heard any claims of using cheaper parts. I suspect it's quite the opposite.
Someone posted a while back that they couldn't put their H 10 movement on a timegrapher and get it to read correctly.

What they discovered was the pallet fork and one other part were made out of plastic, because of that it wasn't producing the correct sound for the timegrapher to read the rate.

Now whether or not you consider that to be "cheaper" parts or not is I guess debatable?

I do think that removing the regulator and replacing parts that cause it to not read correctly on a time Grapher are a big step backwards, if you have a watch that is in need of regulation.

But almost everyone says that their H10 watches are incredibly accurate, so I guess maybe that doesn't matter? I wasn't super enthusiastic about mine running -8/s per day, but I suppose I was just unlucky.


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Someone posted a while back that they couldn't put their H 10 movement on a timegrapher and get it to read correctly.

What they discovered was the pallet fork and one other part were made out of plastic, because of that it wasn't producing the correct sound for the timegrapher to read the rate.

Now whether or not you consider that to be "cheaper" parts or not is I guess debatable?

I do think that removing the regulator and replacing parts that cause it to not read correctly on a time Grapher are a big step backwards, if you have a watch that is in need of regulation.

But almost everyone says that their H10 watches are incredibly accurate, so I guess maybe that doesn't matter? I wasn't super enthusiastic about mine running -8/s per day, but I suppose I was just unlucky.


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Please don't mistake this as me calling you a liar, because I'm definitely not, but I'd be interested in seeing proof of plastic parts in any of the H series movements.

By the way, there is another post from a couple days ago questioning what the beat rate of an H10 is supposed to be because the poster put his H10 driven watch on a timegrapher and it read 21600 BPH when he thought it was supposed to be 28800. He didn't mention any issue with his timegrapher not being able to read it.
 

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Please don't mistake this as me calling you a liar, because I'm definitely not, but I'd be interested in seeing proof of plastic parts in any of the H series movements.

By the way, there is another post from a couple days ago questioning what the beat rate of an H10 is supposed to be because the poster put his H10 driven watch on a timegrapher and it read 21600 BPH when he thought it was supposed to be 28800. He didn't mention any issue with his timegrapher not being able to read it.
This thread talks about the Powermatic 80 having a plastic pallet fork and escapement wheel. I can't be 100% sure, but I assume this applies to the H – 10 as well.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/tissot-powermatic-80-problems-3036370.html


The thread that the guy talks about not being able to get his Hamilton to read on time Grapher is out there if you feel like Google searching it. As I recall he said that when he took the case back off it would read, but because of the plastic pallet fork, the tick-tock sound wasn't loud enough for the time Grapher to hear it with the case back on the watch.

There's also threads that talk about swatch sistem 51 watches, and compare those and their disposable movements to the Tissot Powermatic 80 and Hamilton H – 10 movements.

I don't know what it all means. Maybe it's completely irrelevant, and it doesn't matter at all that the watch movement has plastic parts and that they removed the regulator. That's for each of us to decide before we spend our money I guess.


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This thread talks about the Powermatic 80 having a plastic pallet fork and escapement wheel. I can't be 100% sure, but I assume this applies to the H – 10 as well.

https://www.watchuseek.com/f6/tissot-powermatic-80-problems-3036370.html


The thread that the guy talks about not being able to get his Hamilton to read on time Grapher is out there if you feel like Google searching it. As I recall he said that when he took the case back off it would read, but because of the plastic pallet fork, the tick-tock sound wasn't loud enough for the time Grapher to hear it with the case back on the watch.

There's also threads that talk about swatch sistem 51 watches, and compare those and their disposable movements to the Tissot Powermatic 80 and Hamilton H – 10 movements.

I don't know what it all means. Maybe it's completely irrelevant, and it doesn't matter at all that the watch movement has plastic parts and that they removed the regulator. That's for each of us to decide before we spend our money I guess.


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That's really good info BlueFish. Thanks!

I just bought a Hamilton with an H21 movement. Appearance wise, it looks a lot closer to a standard 7750 than the H10 looks to the 2824 and the reserve increase isn't nearly as much nor did the BPH drop, so I hope they didn't follow suit on the H21 by replacing the escapement wheel and pallet fork with "composite" parts.

EDIT: Actually, I just looked through a 10x loupe since my H40656781 has an exhibition caseback and the escapement wheel and pallet fork are definitely metal on the H21. I spent about 20 minutes examining the movement and I could find no plastic. Of course there are many parts of the movement that aren't visible through the caseback window, but at least I know the 2 parts that were replaced with plastic parts on the Powermatic 80 are metal on the H21.
 

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Another observation: From what I gather in the linked powermatic 80 post, the plastic pallet fork doesn't have the 2 jewels that the standard 2824's pallet fork has and that's why the jewel count for the powermatic 80 is 23 as opposed to the 25 jewel count of the 2824. Given the fact that the jewel count of the H10 is 25, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the H10 has reverted back to a jeweled metal pallet fork and escapement wheel.

It would be cool if someone who has one could check. It should be visible through any watch with an exhibition caseback.

By the way, I did google search that post about a watch that wouldn't read properly on a timegrapher unless the caseback was removed and I'm pretty sure I found what you were referring to. It was actually a powermatic 80 driven Tissot he was trying to read and he was asking for anyone with a Hamilton H10 to see if they may have tried to put their H10 on a timegrapher and had the same issues. There were no replies.
 

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I have a H10 in a Khaki Field and runs at +0.2 per day without fail. Of all the ETA 2824 and Selita SW200 derived movements I have it is by far the best and also the cheapest by far! Great watch for the money!

Paul
 

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I was just considering a watch with this movement in the frogman 42mm.

I will stay clear if you guys think it is subbing out inferior parts. Has there been any conclusions yet?


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As a side note to the above post (I'm sure most everyone here already knows this), I called the Swatch Group today and asked if the watches with the H10 movements can be serviced. The confirmed they can be, but must be sent back to them. I also asked about the plastic pieces mentioned earlier in this thread and they will be calling me back.

So I guess maybe my watchmaker would not be able to help with any of these movements. :(
 

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As a side note to the above post (I'm sure most everyone here already knows this), I called the Swatch Group today and asked if the watches with the H10 movements can be serviced. The confirmed they can be, but must be sent back to them. I also asked about the plastic pieces mentioned earlier in this thread and they will be calling me back.

So I guess maybe my watchmaker would not be able to help with any of these movements. :(
That is the conclusion I came to, that if you have a local watchmaker it's unlikely he has the tools or expertise to work on this movement. As much as I liked my Hamilton, because of that and only average accuracy (-8s/d) I decided to sell it.


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I believe I have found photographic proof the the H-10 uses a metal escapement wheel and pallet fork with jewels. This is an H-10-S (skeleton version of H-10) and it definitely has pallet fork jewels and that escapement wheel sure looks metallic to me:
IMG_1522.JPG
 
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