Help identifying an ultra slim gold pocket watch with the Geneva Seal

1694 Views 12 Replies 4 Participants Last post by StianL, Oct 1, 2021

StianL

Discussion Starter · Sep 27, 2021

Dear gurus,

I have come across this ultra slim 18K pocket watch from 1930 with a Poinçon de Genève movement but the rather generic "Masterpiece Geneve" on the dial. It has Breguet hands but no markings of manufacturer anywhere from what I can see. I suspect this was a made to order piece and have asked the Geneva Seal gatekeepers at Poinçon de Genève | L'excellence horlogère depuis 1886 for help identifying the watch but they are not at all responding.

Would anyone be able to help identify the movement and/or the overall manufacturer?

--
Best regards,
Stian

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Michael Maddan

· #2 · Sep 27, 2021

I'll start on this one: Audemars Piguet?

The click and pallet bridge look familiar, as does the general layout.

( to another Watchuseeker: am I close, Enrico?! ).

Michael.

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Old Navman

· #3 · Sep 28, 2021

Yes, it does look similar. A number of manufacturers used to make movements suspiciously similar in design. For comparison I attached 3 alike looking movements (first is OP's) - PP and 2 x AP. (the last AP movement is cal 17SVF) There are some minor differences between those movements in gear train bridge, barrel bridge, click spring, case screw location to mention a few.

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StianL

Discussion Starter · #4 · Sep 28, 2021

Thanks so much, guys, very helpful! One other question; does the oxydation on the balance cock and the mainplate indicate anything further with regards to materials used by these manufacturers?

I will take the watch apart and show photos from the dial side as well, and if there are any markings under the balance cock or elsewhere I will update this post.

--
Best regards,
Stian

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Michael Maddan

· #5 · Sep 28, 2021

I have seen watches from this Era that look new...the nickel or gilt plates could have been made last week. The reverse sometimes happens, and the poor watch can almost appear to have been used daily in a Siberian Uranium Mine ( ouch ).

With your watch, if you'll look at the junction between the dust cover and the case, there's what I'll call quite a bit of debris, and it's of a color that is in my experience unusual. It may be that the watch saw some type of service that exposed it to a substance or substances that not only accumulated on the case, but was able to get inside, and leave its mark on the plates. Just a guess. Then again, let's assume that different Makers were fond of different materials, and that some of these choices resulted in surfaces that 'simply' aged better than others.

Be all this as it may, I will suggest that a good, experienced Watchmaker will be able to remove this tarnish, and hand you back a watch that appears to have been made...last week!

Oh: as you may have heard by now, there were ( apparently...since I've seen but a few! ) quite a few Swiss PW's made that seem entirely bereft of any identification...no Maker's Mark or Stamp. I own two or three of these, and they sure look about as well made as anything, yet the Maker's decided not leave not a hint of their work...

Michael.

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StianL

Discussion Starter · #6 · Sep 28, 2021

Michael Maddan said:
I have seen watches from this Era that look new...the nickel or gilt plates could have been made last week. The reverse sometimes happens, and the poor watch can almost appear to have been used daily in a Siberian Uranium Mine ( ouch ).

With your watch, if you'll look at the junction between the dust cover and the case, there's what I'll call quite a bit of debris, and it's of a color that is in my experience unusual. It may be that the watch saw some type of service that exposed it to a substance or substances that not only accumulated on the case, but was able to get inside, and leave its mark on the plates. Just a guess. Then again, let's assume that different Makers were fond of different materials, and that some of these choices resulted in surfaces that 'simply' aged better than others.

Be all this as it may, I will suggest that a good, experienced Watchmaker will be able to remove this tarnish, and hand you back a watch that appears to have been made...last week!

Oh: as you may have heard by now, there were ( apparently...since I've seen but a few! ) quite a few Swiss PW's made that seem entirely bereft of any identification...no Maker's Mark or Stamp. I own two or three of these, and they sure look about as well made as anything, yet the Maker's decided not leave not a hint of their work...

Michael.

Thanks, Michael! The reason I asked about the materials is that I haven't seen this kind of oxidation inside a watch, normally you see it on gold or gold plated watch cases. I would generally expect the movement to be made from brass but the oxidation made me curious if it could be some other materials.

--
Best regards,
Stian

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eri231

· #7 · Sep 29, 2021

looking at the click-spring type and the wheel train arrangement, I could tell it's a Frederick Piguet ebauches. AP Piaget V&C Movado Blancpain Omega Chopard Zenith and curious Waltham were also clients of Federick Piguet.
Regards enrico

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Old Navman

· #8 · Sep 29, 2021

StianL said:
Thanks so much, guys, very helpful! One other question; does the oxydation on the balance cock and the mainplate indicate anything further with regards to materials used by these manufacturers?
I will take the watch apart and show photos from the dial side as well, and if there are any markings under the balance cock or elsewhere I will update this post.
--
Best regards,
Stian

I'm curious - what is that brown/gold mark stamped on the gear train bridge (5th photo) at about 1 o'clock? Can you zoom in and upload a close up? It may not be of any significance.

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StianL

Discussion Starter · #9 · Sep 29, 2021

Old Navman said:
I'm curious - what is that brown/gold mark stamped on the gear train bridge (5th photo) at about 1 o'clock? Can you zoom in and upload a close up? It may not be of any significance.

Hi Old Navman,

It's the Geneva Seal, which is stamped on two places in movements which are qualified for it; on the mainplate and on a bridge. Geneva Seal - Wikipedia

--
Best regards,
Stian

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Old Navman

· #10 · Sep 29, 2021

StianL said:
Hi Old Navman,

It's the Geneva Seal, which is stamped on two places in movements which are qualified for it; on the mainplate and on a bridge. Geneva Seal - Wikipedia

--
Best regards,
Stian

Thanks StianL, that shows the seal in all it's glory.

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StianL

Discussion Starter · #11 · Sep 29, 2021

Old Navman said:
Thanks StianL, that shows the seal in all it's glory.

Yes, it's very difficult to get a close enough shot that is clear

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Michael Maddan

· #12 · Sep 29, 2021 (Edited)

StianL said:
Thanks, Michael! The reason I asked about the materials is that I haven't seen this kind of oxidation inside a watch, normally you see it on gold or gold plated watch cases. I would generally expect the movement to be made from brass but the oxidation made me curious if it could be some other materials.

--
Best regards,
Stian

At least here in America, many PW's were made with solid nickel plates. Almost all the RR-Grade pieces were, and I've long heard that many watches made after the industry got on its feet in the last quarter of the 1800's also used Damaskeened nickel plates. Gilt plates continued to be popular, though, and many finely-made, "Adjusted" PWs used this finish well into the 1900's.

I have several Swiss PW's from the late 1800's / early 1900's that were made with solid nickel plates, and I have seen more than a few with 'just' this type of tarnish. I'd not go so far as to suggest it's common, but, it's certainly not rare.

As I'm recalling at this moment, a few, current German ww Manufacturers rather proudly note that they use 'German Silver' to make their watches. I reckon that quite a few 1800's Swiss makers did, too.

Michael.

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StianL

Discussion Starter · #13 · Oct 1, 2021

Michael Maddan said:
At least here in America, many PW's were made with solid nickel plates. Almost all the RR-Grade pieces were, and I've long heard that many watches made after the industry got on its feet in the last quarter of the 1800's also used Damaskeened nickel plates. Gilt plates continued to be popular, though, and many finely-made, "Adjusted" PWs used this finish well into the 1900's.

I have several Swiss PW's from the late 1800's / early 1900's that were made with solid nickel plates, and I have seen more than a few with 'just' this type of tarnish. I'd not go so far as to suggest it's common, but, it's certainly not rare.

As I'm recalling at this moment, a few, current German ww Manufacturers rather proudly note that they use 'German Silver' to make their watches. I reckon that quite a few 1800's Swiss makers did, too.

Michael.

Interesting stuff, thanks a lot for sharing!

--
Best regards,
Stian

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