[Earthjade]

So there was a watch hierarchy thread going round on the board right now and everyone can agree that it was pretty freaking bad in how it ranked watch brands.
There has always been this one graphic from a blog (link HERE) that I thought ranked watches very well but it was missing a lot of brands we talk about around here. So I updated that graphic and tweaked a few of the rankings I thought were a little off. I tried to be as objective as possible, but there were a few placings that I felt were borderline.
So here it is (comments welcome):

EDITS since original post:

• Bumped Tissot from Enthusiast to Consumer - too mainstream to be an enthusiast watch.
• Glashutte Original down to "Luxury" (an average unit sale is more comparable to Omega than Zenith)
• Added Epos, Tourby and Mathey-Tissot.
• Added Muhle Glashutte (playing in the same kind of space as Longines)
• Baume & Mercier down to quasi-luxury
• Added Junkers, Meistersinger and Vulcain
• Roger Dubuis and Harry Winston moved from Ultra Luxury to High End Luxury
• Added Seiko Prospex as a separate brand to Enthusiast (but if I make an exception for one???) and added Dubsy & Shoobadoobee
• Column formatting change. Added Eberhard & Co and Eterna (can't believe I forgot Eterna)
• Added Pulsar
• Glashutte original back up to high-end luxury
• Zenith down to luxury (mainly b/c of brand strength)
• Mido up to quasi-luxury
• Added Nixon, MVMT, Monta, Louis Vuitton, Ralph Lauren and Ressence
• Bulgari to luxury
• Added Vostok (the original), Revue Thommen and Corum
• Panerai down to Luxury, removed the Vincero joke category.
• Added Czapek, Armin Strom, Ming, Graham, Kurono, Minase, anOrdian, Habring, ZRC, Formex, Le Jour and Aristo.

 

[Earthjade]

Hermes are a high-end luxury brand

I'm comfortable with where they are on the list in terms of their watches.
The ones I felt were borderline were:

• Blancpain - could arguably be bumped up to ultra luxury
• Hublot - objectively, there is a case to bump them up to ultra luxury as well (as much as I don't want to admit it)

 

[Earthjade]

Always a good way to start a barfight.
Anyway...which Seiko line? Sport 5? Seiko? Prospex? Prospex LX? Sub-lines are going to complicate matters.
This would probably work better as a continuum with a zone between the categories..

Seiko obviously doesn't work the same way Swiss watch brands do - they are a mega corporation with lots of sub-labels and Prospex for example could go into Enthusiast and Entry Level luxury.. But I wasn't about to break them up into Presage, Spirit, Alba, Seiko 5 etc etc. I had to go with where the bulk of their sales are and how they are sold (in every shopping mall = consumer).

Grand Seiko and Credor are their own distinct entity, so they get their own entry. Honestly, Credor is all over the place, reflecting Seiko's lack of focus in general as to who they want to market to.

 

[Earthjade]

Biggest one is that there are too many meaningless categories in there. "Entry-level luxury" vs "quasi-luxury?" Come on...

Point taken, but these categories were the original ones and I think they work very well. So why is "quasi-luxury" a thing? It means "the appearance of luxury". It makes sense when you need to place other brands in relation to it.

For example - Frederique Constant and Raymond Weil. Very few would say that they are on the same level as Tudor but they are more than consumer watches and not enthusiast (e.g. hobby) watches. Also, it's fair to say that Omega is a slight step above Tudor (at least where they stand in 2021). So the "quasi-category" has a place. Everyone here should be able to "feel" those quasi-luxury brands that are aiming at appearing to be luxury watches but are still reasonably priced and have no ambitions to be more than that. It's not a bad thing at all.

 

[Earthjade]

This is really tough since so many Brands like Omega, Breitling and Rolex have such diverse histories. Some of their items are higher end horology and some are very simple mass produced movements. Overall great attempt as it's so subjective.

Yes. I tried to hit the middle ground of where I think a brand sits. There are plenty of brands that have prestige models and high-horology models but if they are more exceptions than their main models, then that doesn't count (much).

Also, some brands have prestigious histories and that doesn't count for a whole lot here versus what they are making now, how they are sold and what they are pricing it as. Bulova is a good example of this.

 

[Earthjade]

I agree that this list is heavily influenced based on a price range but still very solid. Just small things I would say differently:

1. Tissot, Mido, Hamilton, and Certina should be at the same tier. Just like Longines, Rado, and Union.
2. Rolex needs to find their spot and it's not higher.

This is a good point, since Swatch sees Tissot, Mido, Hamilton and Certina at the same general level but their distribution and treatment varies depending on the market Swatch sells into.
However, I believe that Tissot has a broader consumer reach than the other three globally, and more choices for females, which makes them more of a consumer brand than an enthusiast one. It's weird, because "consumer" does not mean it is below "enthusiast". They are just aiming at different markets (although I acknowledge all these brands aim for a broad consumer market, Tissot has the widest reach). and actually, the ranking between those four brands in terms of general price is:

1. Mido
2. Hamilton
3. Certina
4. Tissot

And the enthusiast category is just that - aimed at watch hobbiests and specialist hobby watches in general. Their price range is all the way from consumer to about entry-level luxury. It's not a strict pyramid.

 

[Earthjade]

There's no reality in which Panerai and Rolex belong anywhere near JLC, GO, Chopard, Credor, and Girard-Perregaux.

That's actually a good pick up, but not in the way you probably thought.
GO is probably best placed in Luxury rather than High-End Luxury based on average unit price of the watches they sold in 2020.

 

[Earthjade]

What is Mathey-Tissot? I have one, not sure what it is........vintage, all I know.

Mathey Tissot is a consumer brand these days but they have an interesting history. I will add them in the next revision.

 

[Earthjade]

It's tough because I can easily picture a watch from each group I'd rather have over a watch from the next group up. I'd rather have a Casio or Seiko over a Luminox. A Damasko over a Junghans. A Sinn over a Tag. A Tudor over an Omega. A GS over a Panerai.

There's nothing wrong with that.
Price is the main determinant I use to put them into market segments but we all love our watches without necessarily caring about the price.

 

[Earthjade]

I'd swap Glashutte Original and Zenith. And move Steinhart to consumer. But the rest are about spot on.
Oh, and Panerai should move down to just luxury.

• Sales wise, GO and Zenith are about equal. Average price wise, GO is comparable to Omega. Zenith has the higher average price closer to Chopard and it's got the history which I start to consider more in the luxury watch space. They are both borderline cases, that's for sure.
• I'd put Steinhart into consumer if they were more widely distributed and available. Now they are still a niche brand with limited access,
• Panerai have trashed their reputation but their prices are still firmly in high end luxury range. And you can't take their history away from them despite recent missteps.

Here's the thing - if you go by average price of the watches sold, Bell & Ross would be at the top of luxury or in the low part of high-end luxury. Who here would accept that? No one.
They take a hit because they don't have the heritage - so entry-level luxury is where they are placed, which I think is fair.
So what I am saying is that while pricing is the first thing to look at, heritage and history is also in play (or lack thereof).

 

[Earthjade]

Everyone saying Omega and Rolex are on the same level - not going to happen.
By any objective measure, there is a clear step up between the two brands in terms of prestige and pricing.

 

[Earthjade]

I would raise the level of Tudor, other than that, not a bad rating system.

I believe Tudor is accurately placed, but it is one of the fastest moving brands at the moment. In a few years time, I can easily see it step higher while most others will likely stay where they are.

 

[Earthjade]

but after looking up Vincero I don't understand why you call them "Affordable Luxury". They look more like a nice consumer brand to me.

Yeah, look - it's a joke some people will get because "affordable luxury" (an oxymoron) and "cutting out the middleman" are boilerplate statements made by start-up brands that are essentially selling branded Chinese watches and trying to pass them off as something more exclusive than that. But you're right - if Vincero were truly on the list, they would be in consumer.

As for Seiko, don't blame me for where they are on the list. Blame Seiko for making watches all the way up the scale from consumer to entry-level luxury and not thinking maybe having different brand names and identities (other than a subtitle) might have been advantageous for when posters on watch forums decided to make tier lists.

 

[Earthjade]

Tutima must be placed higher as a brand, they make an in-house minute repeater(!!).

I am going by the typical median watch of these brands. It's a fair way to approach this. There are plenty of companies that make high-horology pieces that are an exception to what they generally make. TAG and Tissot are examples. But I'm not about to put TAG into high-end luxury. It's also why Seiko is such a tough one to place given how broad they use their name on their range of products.

In Japan, there is a brand called Kentex. Their philosophy is to make "high-quality watches that appeal to Japanese sensibilities at a reasonable price". That reasonable price is anywhere from $200 to $2,000 USD. I would consider them an enthusiast watch, given their small reach within Japan, the style of their watches (tool watches) and the price brackets they operate in. However, they also make and sell an in-house tourbillon worth many times their next most expensive watch.
Would I bump them up into luxury or high end luxury because they make a tourbillon watch? Uh, no.

 

[Earthjade]

Agree with the list for the most part, except maybe RD needs to be down a tier.

Good point.
I've moved Roger Dubuis and Harry Winston down one tier. They are close, but not enough to be ultra luxury.

 

[Earthjade]

Gucci would not elevate beyond being a consumer fashion watch to me. Same as any other non specialist watch maker piggy backing off a fashion background.

You would think that, but it's not quite so simple.
Gucci is part of the Kering Group, which includes Ulysse Nardin and Girard-Perregaux. Build wise, Gucci watches are not all that much but they've been placed in a market segment where a Gucci watch sells for the same price as an average Longines and they sell OK to boot (almost as much as Tudor sold last year). Gucci is not high-end fashion like Cartier, Dior or Chanel, but they are a step up from other fashion brands like Swatch's Calvin Klein or Emporio Armani.

 

[Earthjade]

I agree with Tsujigiri. There are too many categories for the different luxury levels (6 in total), while only two for the rest. This puts the emphasis on luxury brands, while things are different when you consider the amount of units sold, or even the annual turnover.

I think regular non luxury watch brands could be divided in entry level, midrange, and high end ; while the luxury ones similarly divided into three levels.

This would probably induce Victorinox and Tissot to get into the mid range category, as their first listed watches on their catalogues are about 250-300$ (recommended price), which usually isn't entry level at watchmaker aiming for all publics (contrary to some Casio and Timex models, managing to get way < 50$).

Still, I commend the effort for listing that much brands, and learned a few ones in the ultra-luxury category. And even if doing so will expose you to a lot of criticism, I also appreciate you being open to critics and suggestions.

This is a difficult proposition.

1) It will not solve the Japanese problem of being in many tiers (it will make it worse - where do I place Seiko, Citizen and Orient who would be all over those tiers?)
2) High-end consumer watches are the quasi-luxury watches (essentially)
3) In my opinion, Enthusiast watches run in parallel to Consumer watches, Quasi-luxury watches and entry-Level luxury watches

What do others think? Is it worth it to try and break this up even further or is the current grouping generally indicative and OK?

 

[Earthjade]

Out of 8 categories 6 are Luxury brands?

Without commenting on everything, I think Hermès is doing an excellent job these days and is certainly an underrated brand.

I consider quasi-luxury to be closer to consumer and enthusiast than the luxury tiers that come above it.
Vincero is in a class of its own. Luxury is not a strong enough word to describe it.

 

[Earthjade]

@Earthjade
Sorry for the question, but: What is the purpose of this list?

I would also be interested to know on what basis you made the classification.
For example, you put IWC under "Luxury", Rolex under "High-end Luxury" and Piaget under "Ultra Luxury".
Why is a manufacturer that develops and builds highly complicated movements in-house (e.g. Portugieser Constant-Force Tourbillon Edition (250,000 sFr | $270,000) and Portugieser Sidérale Scafusia (750,000 sFr | $800,000)) put on the same level with Breitling and Omega, whose biggest available complications are the date display and chronograph function?

Mainly average unit price of a watch sale to settle on initial placing.

 

[Earthjade]

Monta? They are quasi luxury in my opinion

I didn't put Monta in because I'm not sure they have graduated past being a microbrand and if I put microbrands in here, the list would explode and 90% of them would go into the same category anyway. I do realise that there are some borderline cases, though. You could argue that:

• Steinhart
• Farer
• Christopher Ward (less so in the past few years, though)

are microbrands.
I added Steinhart because they are a popular brand around here and Farer out of personal bias (I like them and they seem much more commercial than your basic microbrand).
I was thinking of adding Zelos as well but decided against it for now because they still operate like a microbrand with limited runs that sell out. Same with the Rolex of microbrands, Halios.

And I agree that Monta would be quasi-luxury. Right from the beginning they were aiming at a higher quality image than an average microbrand (with prices to match).