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I wouldnt touch either one of them, they both look wrong and do not resemble any Breitling i have ever seen before
 

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Same as Rene: stay away from this itemssantasmile
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
FAKE Antique B's eBay

I posted this recently about two vintage fake B's I had spotted on the web.

My post was universally ignored, as everyone responded to Paul's excellent questioning POST about the same 2 watches - rather than my jokey not so excellent POST :)

The only point I would want to add to the excellent responses so far. Is to highlight the main reason for my posting - which was not to ask whether they were fake or not - but just to point them out.

They are part of a growing trend in the area of faking an antique Breitling from various period bits and shoving on a few "SIGNED" items, a dial (which could just as easily be a period NOS dial as it could be a false dial).

It was especially worrying in this case as the owner had paid good money for one of the watches and they thought, and probably continue to think, is a real Breitling.

As you would expect - most of the people on this forum (of course not everyone) are into the modern brand and either already own one or two (or in Ron's case a whole family) or are thinking of making their first purchase.

I am not suggesting the forum soley concentrates on new models - as it clearly does not and we are luckily to have some excellent historians as well - but generally this forum has concentrated on showing up Modern fakes being perpetrated as real watches and this has been a relative easy exercise for those who have a real knowledge of modern Breitlings (but often quite hard for those that don't)

Modern B’s are made from very high quality materials and have very specific designs and usually have a comprehensive set of documentation.

This is not the case with vintage Bs though. I have seen a few fakes on the bay recently (and several have turned up on our forum). I have also seen a lot more "Breitling" parts sold from various sources as well. I have logged them all and am waiting for the dials to turn up in generic cases. So I can flag these for what they are. If I can out the odd eBay fraudster in the process I will be very happy indeed.

It's never going to be an exact science as, dials and fixtures were no where near as uniform as they are today and there less of an opportunity to be definate is. It is especially worrying when you see one that you believe to be a fake - made up from a similar watch with a quality period movement but the case is not right and there is no serial or model number - but the owner insists it is real because it has the right movement.

Hopefully we will all do the best we can to highlight this worryingly new trend and advise as many people as possible (as this forum has always done). Like all collecting it is very tempting to buy cheaply because you think you have nabbed a bargain but to anyone new to Breitlings and want to purchase their first vintage model do so would all please be very careful.


Brad.
 

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Hi Brad,

thanks for the answer , and explaining the reason(s) for pointing these 2 out. I can only speak for myself here, but I am quite pleased seeing some hard to find parts being put up for sale on *bay. Recently I found a complete NOS 809 case incl. dial , case , reptile strap but its missing the movement and hands and I am very pleased that these parts *do* turn up from time to time.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=42082

These parts give me the opportunity to 'build' or 'complete' my watch , and I might even sell it later on . Does this mean it is a 'frankenwatch' or 'fake' ? (this is a general question, not specifically aimed at you :) ) I tend to think it is still an original , as long as it was build ('restored' ?) with original and age correct parts.

As I am getting more and more interested in vintage 806 and 809's , and recently found out how hard it is to get , for example, an all black sliderule ring , I am picking up parts left and right (dials, movement parts, sliderule rings and the occasional case) just to make sure that I do have some parts , in case I need them later on. (does someone have a set of NOS hands please :) )

I thank you for the warning(s) that you give , but not all people that buy 'just the parts' are fraudsters or trying to scam :) ,but it is worrying to see that more and more really fake vintage watches are fetching very high prices !! .

And as you rightfully stated , there are some real experts on the board(s) and when in doubt, ask !

Rgds
-Rene
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Hi Brad,

thanks for the answer , and explaining the reason(s) for pointing these 2 out. I can only speak for myself here, but I am quite pleased seeing some hard to find parts being put up for sale on *bay. Recently I found a complete NOS 809 case incl. dial , case , reptile strap but its missing the movement and hands and I am very pleased that these parts *do* turn up from time to time.

https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=42082

These parts give me the opportunity to 'build' or 'complete' my watch , and I might even sell it later on . Does this mean it is a 'frankenwatch' or 'fake' ? (this is a general question, not specifically aimed at you :) ) I tend to think it is still an original , as long as it was build ('restored' ?) with original and age correct parts.

As I am getting more and more interested in vintage 806 and 809's , and recently found out how hard it is to get , for example, an all black sliderule ring , I am picking up parts left and right (dials, movement parts, sliderule rings and the occasional case) just to make sure that I do have some parts , in case I need them later on. (does someone have a set of NOS hands please :) )

I thank you for the warning(s) that you give , but not all people that buy 'just the parts' are fraudsters or trying to scam :) ,but it is worrying to see that more and more really fake vintage watches are fetching very high prices !! .

And as you rightfully stated , there are some real experts on the board(s) and when in doubt, ask !

Rgds
-Rene


Rene,

I think it's great when NOS parts turn up that get used to repair existing Breitlings. As you have done with your 809.

If of course you end up finding a 809 movement and put it in the spare case when you find one - you will have produced a Frankenwatch that may well use all genuine parts but never left the factory that way as a completed model.

Does your new old stock case have a serial number?
If it did - which number now sits on your 809?
If it does - are you sure it left the factory as a new OS case?
If so, will you scratch it out and replace it with one marked "rene001 2007"? :)
If not, will just be putting in a new movement in a watch that someone else removed the movement from previously?

This debate has been going around in classic car circles for years. As to what is genune and what is fabricated.

I do not worry about you defrauding anyone, as you are clearly a lover of the brand - but one day the person you sold the watch to (or who buys in your inheritence sale) may well do so.
 

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Does your new old stock case have a serial number?
If it did - which number now sits on your 809?
Yes it does have a back with a serial number , I didnt replace (or swap) the
backs , and will keep it as it is right now

If it does - are you sure it left the factory as a new OS case?
You can never be sure of that , it may have had a movement, the movement may have been used to repair another watch ?, who knows what happened to it over the last 40 years ?

If so, will you scratch it out and replace it with one marked "rene001 2007"? :)
Its an idea !! *lol* , but I am trying to find an original Breitling venus movement to go into the case , preferably without scratching out the serial number

This debate has been going around in classic car circles for years. As to what is genune and what is fabricated.
I know, being a '58 Vette owner i've gone rounds and rounds. My take on this is : "use original (when possible NOS) and period parts . and the car / watch is still original" , and there's always exceptions for parts that wear out and need replacing (tires - rubbers-oils-coolant / gears-oiling-regular maintanance)

I do not worry about you defrauding anyone, as you are clearly a lover of the brand - but one day the person you sold the watch to (or who buys in your inheritence sale) may well do so.
If I decide to sell I will certainly mention the history of the watch , and service record etc. those are the little thinks I am personally interested in and would be happy to share with potential buyers , at least they know what they get and can decide for themselves if it takes value away from it

Rgds
-Rene (lets start an offtopic vintage cars forum :)
 

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Hi Brad and Rene'. This has been the kind of exchange...

I really enjoy reading in a thread post. You both make very interesting and correct points and observations. To toss in my tuppence, I think the classic car restoration analogy does apply here, but not entirely. The modifications I made to vette's back in the 60's through early 80's were intended to produce fire breathing bad ass show and race cars. I had no way of knowing back then that had I kept all the "original" parts with "original numbers" I could have "restored" the cars making them MUCH more valuable a few decades later. Truthfully, those modifications "improved" and "individualized" the cars to a very personal extent. Classic watches are not "souped up" to use an old American "Hot Rodder" term. They are brought back to as original as possible when restored by a knowledgable owner. IMO, that does not make them frankenpieces at all. Heck, my very first Breitling, a 1990 vintage Old Navitimer, had its original 17 jewel V7750 replaced by the later 25 jewel version during a regular service in the late 90's by BUSA and I didn't even know it until just a few years ago. Did BUSA make that watch a "franken"? Not in my opinion. Another thought is that true NOS hands will in fact have diminished luminosity as the tritium cannot be new enough to "restore" the original "new" characteristic to a piece. That said, I am personally in favor of Superluminova for hands and dials, both for functionality and beauty. No "original numbers" can work as well. Rene' knows I have replacement dials (he sent one to me) for my black Old Nav and my DB Cosmo. I will certainly have the Heists lume those dials when the time comes for it and you know what the material will be.

As for the scammers and cheats who take advantage of other's interest in classic timepieces, I'm certain we all share an opinion of them which has been stated many times over on the forum. Thanks again for the interesting read, guys. :)
Cheers,
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Rene,

I guess there is a lot to consider here.

IMO

1. What you are proposing to do with your 809 case, if and when you find a 24 hour movement, should constitute as keeping the brand alive, especiallly as you propose to well document your actions. This is the key point, though as to all intense and purposes it is a made up watch and in principle I have to be against "bitsas" now matter how genuine everything is.

I have several old B's - they all have serial numbers on and I hope that they all left the factory on the date the serial number equates too and hopefully have most of the bits they shipped with still in them ( running repairs aside).

I would be upset if this were not the case and horrified if I found out that one was made up from a selection of bits collected over a period of time - but I am talking about a watch that in some cases are over 60 years old and realistically expect that some of them will have a lot of new bits in over the years.

HOWEVER

2. What you are proposing is far removed form the 2 fakes produced below - which are considerably different to any Breitling ever made and are just horrible fakes sold by a thief.

3. What you are proposing is far removed from some of the other models I have seen that have a genuine Breitling dial in a cheaper watch with the same movement in an attempt to hike the price to a Breitling collectable price. This is also fraud.


Brad
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Hey Ron,

Just read your comments entered whilst I was doing my last reply o| funny how a lot of us dig old cars as well|>

I agree, of course, with your 1990 Nav not being a fraken.

The question is in 42 years time when the back gets taken off by the sole remaining watchman who can repair post 86 B's. He will just shake his head and say "hey this watch never came with the 25 jewel movement".

Thankfully you have documentation to back up why - and then it becomes a curio with an interesting history!!

This to me is the difference and is long way from the view of making up an extra model from a collection of the right bits :)


Brad
 
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