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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Last week I got an Orient Mako II (caliber f6922) and timegrapher as a little present for myself.

Unfortunately, the Orient ran about 18 seconds fast out of the box (on the wrist). Still within the factory tolerance, but somewhat disappointing.

Naturally, I tried regulating the watch. Here's what I observed after adjusting it.

Dial Up: +8s, 292 deg amplitude, 0.1 ms beat error.
Dial Down: +10s, 291 deg, 0.1 ms
Crown Up: +1s, 263 deg, 0.1 ms
Crown Down: +3s, 257 deg, 0.1 ms
12 Up: -4s, 246 deg, 0.1 ms
12 Down: +8, 247 deg, 0.2 ms

Is this kind of amplitude fluctuation normal? Or should have I just returned the watch? It's too late now, but it would be nice to know what to look for in the future.

EDIT: Forgot to mention. It's running about 3 to 4 seconds fast on the wrist now. I think the rate in each position is acceptable and the beat error is ok.
 

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I have a Seiko Shogun with 6R15 movement, and would love to have timgrapher reading like yours. You could try to open up the case and regulate your watch to make it run slower, but remember watches will naturally run slower overtime as lubricants dry up, etc.


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I have an Orient Tristar with, presumably, the 469 movement. When I got it this Christmas, it was about 5 seconds fast each day and I was delighted. After a week, it turned to being about 30 seconds fast each day. I have yet to get a timegrapher, but I will likely do so in the next few months. I presume it has become faster because the lubricants have been distributed throughout the mechanism. I also have a Seiko 5, but I believe it's been damaged from a drop. I will see how bad it is when I get the timegrapher.
 

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Last week I got an Orient Mako II (caliber f6922) and timegrapher as a little present for myself.

Unfortunately, the Orient ran about 18 seconds fast out of the box (on the wrist). Still within the factory tolerance, but somewhat disappointing.

Naturally, I tried regulating the watch. Here's what I observed after adjusting it.

Dial Up: +8s, 292 deg amplitude, 0.1 ms beat error.
Dial Down: +10s, 291 deg, 0.1 ms
Crown Up: +1s, 263 deg, 0.1 ms
Crown Down: +3s, 257 deg, 0.1 ms
12 Up: -4s, 246 deg, 0.1 ms
12 Down: +8, 247 deg, 0.2 ms

Is this kind of amplitude fluctuation normal? Or should have I just returned the watch? It's too late now, but it would be nice to know what to look for in the future.

EDIT: Forgot to mention. It's running about 3 to 4 seconds fast on the wrist now. I think the rate in each position is acceptable and the beat error is ok.
What are you using for a lift angle?
 

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I have a Timegrapher 1000 (china made), and measured my Orient tristar with the F4902 movement: Dial Up: +4s, 323 deg amplitude, 0.0 ms beat error. Dial Down: +3 to 5s, 281 to 293 deg, 0.0 ms Crown Up: -2 to -4s, 284 to 296 deg, 0.0 ms Crown Down: -5 to -1s, 273 to 288 deg, 0.1 ms 12 Up: -12 to -8s, 252 to 256 deg, 0.2 ms 12 Down: -3 to -7s, 282 to 286 deg, 0.1 ms Even though the movement is different, the amplitude trends seem very similar: highest amplitude is dial up, lowest amplitude is 12 up. I do notice that there is about 4 seconds variance in the s/d rate, and about up to 20° variance in amplitude. My Seiko 5 is pretty gimped up. It probably needs a good cleaning as I can actually see crud in it. It's only about 5 years old, but it has been repaired before after a drop. It is entirely possible I introduced the crud, however. The Seiko has an amplitude of 125, I think, and there is huge positional variance in beat rate. However, it may not have been fully wound either. My sister has a new Seiko 5 with the 7s26C movement (mine is the 7s26B). I'll test that out and see what I get. Right now, I'm feeling pretty good about mine. It does run about 5s/d fast on the wrist, worn 24h/d. I will try removing it at night and storing it 12 up position overnight to maintain accuracy. For some reason, I the website won't let me put "returns" in the text.
 

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I have a Timegrapher 1000 (china made), and measured my Orient tristar with the F4902 movement: Dial Up: +4s, 323 deg amplitude, 0.0 ms beat error. Dial Down: +3 to 5s, 281 to 293 deg, 0.0 ms Crown Up: -2 to -4s, 284 to 296 deg, 0.0 ms Crown Down: -5 to -1s, 273 to 288 deg, 0.1 ms 12 Up: -12 to -8s, 252 to 256 deg, 0.2 ms 12 Down: -3 to -7s, 282 to 286 deg, 0.1 ms Even though the movement is different, the amplitude trends seem very similar: highest amplitude is dial up, lowest amplitude is 12 up. I do notice that there is about 4 seconds variance in the s/d rate, and about up to 20° variance in amplitude. My Seiko 5 is pretty gimped up. It probably needs a good cleaning as I can actually see crud in it. It's only about 5 years old, but it has been repaired before after a drop. It is entirely possible I introduced the crud, however. The Seiko has an amplitude of 125, I think, and there is huge positional variance in beat rate. However, it may not have been fully wound either. My sister has a new Seiko 5 with the 7s26C movement (mine is the 7s26B). I'll test that out and see what I get. Right now, I'm feeling pretty good about mine. It does run about 5s/d fast on the wrist, worn 24h/d. I will try removing it at night and storing it 12 up position overnight to maintain accuracy. For some reason, I the website won't let me put "returns" in the text.
And what are you using for a lift angle input?
 

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I cannot find a lift angle documented anywhere for the F4902 movement, so I used the default angle of 52° that my Timegrapher used. I realize it may not be correct, but that's the best I can do. I tested the watch first thing in the morning after 8 hours on a table. All measurements were quite erratic which troubles me somewhat. Remember though, this is not an expensive watch, but the movement is a Japanese movement, made in Japan I believe. I'll test it again after wearing it for the day.
 

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It seems as if the 469 movement series originally came from the Seiko 7000 series movements. I believe all the Seiko 7000 series had a lift angle of 53°. I suspect the F4902 movement is very similar to the 469 series because they only differ in whether they have a push button or crown date/date changer. The 469 has a push button, the F4902 uses the crown. For this reason, I suspect the lift angle should be 53°, but for now, I have no other way of proving it.
 

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For comparison purposes: new Seiko 7526c in a Seiko 5. (using 53 lift angle)

Dial up: +3 s/d; 283 amp; 0.8 error
Dial dn: +1 s/d; 279 amp; 0.9 error
Crown up: - 11 s/d; 256 amp; 0.9 error
crown dn: 0 s/d; 262 amp; 1.3 error
12 up: -6 s/d; 255 amp; 1.0 error
12 dn: - 11 s/d; 258 amp; 1.1 error

I tested my father's Tissot (28800 bph) and it was for more consistent in different positions.

The 21 jewel 21600 movements seem to have more positional variance.
 

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Further update on the Orient Tristar: The 12 o'clock position is highly erratic. The amplitude can vary anywhere from 150 to 300°. The beat rate can vary from -4s/d to -15 s/d. Other positions seem more stable. I noticed similar instability with the Seiko, but not nearly so much. Following advice from the thread https://www.watchuseek.com/f2/high-beat-error-low-amplitude-dial-up-position-981849.html , I've left the watch in the 12 o'clock position for the afternoon. The amplitude seems more stable this time, but we'll see.
 

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One more update:
I assume the Tristar uses Orient's most basic automatic movement. It seems slightly noisier on the Timegrapher then the Seiko or Tissot, but that is almost expected given the price range. There is more positional variance in the Orient, and the Orient runs faster on the wrist then any position. on the Timegrapher. While on the wrist it seems to be at least 10 s/d fast, but loses 2-3 s/d at night. On the Timegrapher I got the beat error to 0.1 in most positions.

I'm actually pretty pleased other than the poor lumenosity.
 

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The mako XL I just picked up has similar positional variation to that in the original post. I’ll have to look at a couple other new watches and see how they compare. I usually don’t bother, only using the TG when I service a watch.


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I have a Seiko Shogun with 6R15 movement, and would love to have timgrapher reading like yours. You could try to open up the case and regulate your watch to make it run slower, but remember watches will naturally run slower overtime as lubricants dry up, etc.


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Oddly enough I find my watches tend to speed up as they age. Most of them, with a variety of ETA movements, have shown a second of two quicker since the last time check (last year). With the exception of one which has sped up 10 seconds from last year. I lead an active life with lots of movement, is it possible the bashing they take has this effect? I had thought as the lubricants dry, this might create a little less friction yet, it's an uneducated assumption, with absolutely no proof whatsoever.
 

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I might expect that a watch may speed up over the first few years as the oils disperse, and any machined edges wear smooth. However, as the watch ages after that I would definitely expect it to slow down.

However, it is very interesting that Michael's Mako has such low amplitude in the one position, especially in the 12 up and down position for a new watch. Not being a horologist, I have no idea it that is in a reasonable range. However, because the lift angle is used to calculate the amplitude, pithy's earlier question about the lift angle needs to be answered.

The bottom line is, for me anyway, how accurate it is day to day. If I have a $63 automatic accurate to less than 10 s/d overall, and not varying by more than a few s/d throughout the day, that's pretty good. (I did regulate and adjust the beat error on mine once I had the Timegrapher.)
 

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I kind of expect amplitude to decrease in positions like crown up or down since these positions introduce more friction on one side of the pivots. I think gravity plays into it as well in how everything swings. Can’t recall, doesn’t matter really.


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Ever since changing to daylight savings time, my Tristar has been running much faster, on order of 15 to 20 s/d or more on the wrist. Strange.

On the Timegrapher:
dial up= from 0 to 6 to -6s/d; amp = 295; error = 0.2ms
dial down = +8 to 13 s/d; amp = 321 ; error = 0.9 to 3 ms
crown up = 0 to -6 s/d; amp = 238 to 256 ; error = 0.7
crown down = -5 to 12 s/d; amp = 227 to 270; error = 0.5
12 up = -19 to -12 s/d; amp = 261 ; error = 0.6 ms
12 down = 2 s/d; amp = 262 ; error = 0.6

Even with this, it's running at least 15 s/d fast on the wrist. Amplitude varies somewhat, but this seems normal for Orient watches. Maybe the Tristar isn't so good after all.

Does anyone know how the Miyota automatic movements fare?
 

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I checked for magnetism last night and found that it was slightly magnetized, I suspect from my tablet case.

As noted in my previous post, most measurements were erratic. After demagnetizing the watch, the measurements seemed to settle down. After about 8 hours, it seems to be about 2-3 seconds fast which is where it was before.

Michael, did you check your Mako for magnetism?
 

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Mine was not. In fact the idea of a modern mov’t being magnetized to the point of malfunction might be a bit overblown as, from what I understand the hair and main springs in modern watches are generally antimagnetic. What I do tend to find to be magnetized are the springbars. Occasionally when working on an older mov’t I’ll find a couple screws slightly magnetized but nothing significant.


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Interesting. Demagnetizing my watch seemed to work on mine. Something was definitely magnetized in my watch because it moved my compass when I brought the watch close to it. Remember that mine is a Tristar, the cheapest of the Orients.
 

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When I’ve checked watches in the past with a compass or the app I typically find the ends of the case seemed to signal they were magnetized, so I started checking with the bracelet or strap removed and sure enough it’s the spring bars. As I stated above I rarely find any hint of a loose movement being magnetized.

I shot a quick clip of my attempts to magnetize a scrap mainspring and hairspring from an old Seiko 6309. While the hairspring was influenced when placed very close to the magnet it did not become magnetized itself and I seriously doubt would have suffered from sticking coils as is so often described. I was able to magnetize screws and such with the fridge magnet shown in the video, so obviously it is strong enough to magnetize parts.

The other issue is that the small demagnetizers you can pick up online just aren’t strong enough to completely demagnetize a watch especially if you aren’t removing the movement from the case.

Another curious thing I have experienced in the past was a case back that could not be completely demagnetized. It seemed to have some weird granular segregation that allowed some areas to show up as being magnetized while other areas, actually most of it did not.

Here’s the vid.

https://youtu.be/Qoy1hb5nAro

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