Re: ** warning ** scammers alert ** UPDATE

Dolfan_noles paypal noles825@yahoo.com is a scammer - avoid

 

Can i make a suggestion to all here, i have read alot about the goings on here and other sites and it seems that there are many grubs amongst the good guys, as a collector i recently purchased from the states me being in Sydney i did my homework but come to think of it i dont think it was enough(hindsight is amazing) the deal went fine thankfully but what about asking for there passport and drivers licence picture i would have no problem sharing this info with a potential serious buyer this way they are confident that the seller is really who he says and you can verify where the watch is coming from and so on would this not be an easier way to deal, i know some will say privacy etc but if you have nothing to hide then whats the problem, would like to hear what you guys think too.

Also this post is meant for watches of high value say $1000 plus not sure how it would work for smaller deals as another guy said earlier i think boots for a small deal sometimes its not worth the headache.

gazoz

 

Would it be worth the headache if you lost $600 to a scammer?

I believe that you two are misundersatanding my statement. My point is that under a certain dollar amount, it is not worth the headache for me as the seller. No way on this earth am I going to send anybody my passport or Driver's License pictures. You may be worried about who I am, but I have no idea who you are. If anybody should ask for pictures, it should be the person with the higher "meaningful" post count. That suggestion is right up there with "let me see your facebook page" idea. As if everybody has, or wants to have, a facebook page.

Here is my point, once again. Part of being a solid community is using the strength of the community. This community extends outside WUS. When you want to buy or sell a watch, do so within the community. Anybody that you deal with as a newcomer should have solid credentials within the watch community:

This means:

You should be able to post a reference check on the appropriate forum, i.e. Dive Watch if you are considering a dive watch, Doxa if you are considering a Doxa, and so forth. I provide not only a list of references with their e-mail addresses, but always invite a new(to me) buyer to ask for a reference check on the many forums that I post on, i.e. MWR, EOT, Various WUS fora, TZ. In particular, the sales fora that I post on. If you check my screen name on TZSC, you'll see over three hundred sales postings. look at my posts and decide if I (and this goes for all sellers) am a regular poster who contributes more than a "nice watch" or "thumbs up" posts. If you are still concerned, ask my references what their screen names are on what forums and see how many and how knowledgable their posts are. Disreputable people and non-contributors will reveal themselves. Don't buy from someone who is a recent arrival if you want to be careful.

It is easy enough on most forums, especially sales forums, to click on a seller's name and be able to call up all of his or her posts. If they have no posts, or very few sales and conversational posts, then do the research that I've mentioned here. If you are still so apprehensive that you want passport pictures, etc., than do us and yourself a favor and buy from an authorized dealer. You are not ready to be part of the community. In fact, if you are that new, with few posts of your own, the buyer should be more concerned about you rather than you about him.

If you have no attention of becoming part of the community, than do the community a favor and don't buy or sell a watch here or on any other forum where you haven't established yourself. Buy from e-Bay, protect yourself with a paypal account and don't add to the rampant paranoia that is manifesting itself around here. The point of a solid, well-established online watch community is to build trust among members by having members build their reputations through participation and longevity.

This the end of the message. The rest is my usual rant, so you don't have to read it.

All of this stuff about passport pictures, DL pictures, reverse look-ups, Facebook, etc. is, IMHO, counter-productive to building a strong community. They add to the sense of paranoia of newbies and people who are using the sales forum as a watch flea market without contributing jackbleep to the community. I have to say that this is the most paranoid sales environment of any that I list on. There is no need for it, if you join and deal with established members of the community. After a point, suggestions like this are an insult to the hundreds, if not thousands, of good people selling and buying here.

We have good mods, like Broker, who are zealous in their pursuit of scammers, because some people are so desparate to score the "Big Watch for Little Bucks" that they are stupid enough, gullible enough, that they don't pay attention to the obvious warning signs, and discard the basic tenet of the community: "Buy the Buyer." As I have stated, you may have to accept that you will have to pay "Fair Money for the Big Watch," but you will rest more easily while it is in transit and you will be contributing to the strength of the community.

If I have criticized suggestions in the past, and I know that some hasve been upset with me, it is because I reject strategies that are based upon what I feel is distrust of a seller unless he is willing to share his most personal details with any bezel-kicking potential buyer who is considering buying a watch from me. To me, these strategies detract from the sense of community by making it more impersonal, and take away from the hard work of many others and I who have been collecting, buying, trading, and selling, and building our reputations with integrity. Just because you are new to the scene doesn't mean that I, or any other seller, should have to jump through impersonal identity hoops to sell you a watch. If I wanted to do that, I'd sell from my own website.

Just remember, reputable known sellers have more than one inquiry about anything that he or she lists. Waiting around for several days while you dither and check this and that, when I or others have several buyers whom we have dealt with before, will wear thin. Be part of the community and have an idea, before you see this week's grail listed, of who the sellers are.

Speaking for myself, if my references from the established watch community are not good enough for you unless you want pictures and fingerprints, etc., I'd rather that you not stress yourself by dealing with me. I would imagine that others feel as I do, but I'm a curmudgeon. Is that polite enough?

 

I understand both sides of the coin here. It's essentiallly up to the buyer and seller to work the deal out amongst themselves. This isn't a rule, it's just a tool.

 

A picture is merely a picture and there are enough bogus licenses and even passport pictures out there that they are useless, picture alone. How would that picture be any more valid than my picture posted to the left under my screen name?

I would rather have your references from a forum whereyou have over 700 posts, especially if selling or trading is involved, rather than a passport or license picture that has no valid verification unless the entire license or passport page were posted, and what fool would do that?

Again, all of this stuff is being thought of so that people can buy or sell in safety without taking the time and effort to become a verified member of the watch community. If people don't want to take that time and give that effort, then buy from an AD or e-Bay.

 

Re: ** warning ** scammers alert ** UPDATE

Guys here is what I do when buying a watch. I've never sold one so I cant give advice there.

a) ask if he has references.
b) if he has a high feedback ebay account, send him a message via ebay. If he replies via ebay its a good thing (even if you are not buying via ebay).
c) Ask him to set the watch to a specific time and date. Get him to email you the photos.
d) if he has the original receipt, ask for a photo
e) When you get his email, put the IP address headers into an IPLookup. If the emails do not originate from another area which he claims to be in, its not good (this may not work if the seller uses free email accounts like gmail, yahoo, hotmail etc)
f) check his post count. Then go to his profile and look at his activity. If he has thousands of posts and they look legit, then its a good thing. If he has low posts and most are just random senseless replies & threads, then its not so good.
g) when paying, ask for a paypal invoice that clearly states what you are getting. Get him to send a payment request first. Get seller to use works like Genuine, authentic etc. Fund from your credit card.

Then its all up to gut feeling.

I must say that I sometimes feel sorry for the sellers that I put them through my German interrogation; but so far all the people I bought my watches from have been happy to comply with my requests. Usually if a seller is legit he will understand why you are trying to be sure before buying. The last guy even asked for my references as a buyer, which was a good sign.

I gotta admit, every time I buy a watch online my heart races and I think; 'could this seller be a smarter scammer then I a buyer'. Its all part of the experience.

 

There is no longer "Buyer Protection Policy" for transaction made outside of ebay. It is now called "Buyer Complaint Policy".

Read here:

https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/marketingweb?cmd=_render-content&fli=true&content_ID=ua/BuyerProtComp_full&locale.x=en_US#13.%20Protection%20for%20Buyers.

Here's the difference. You can still file a INR (item not received) dispute and escalate to a claim, but you are NOT guaranteed full recovery.

"If PayPal makes a final decision in your favor, we will collect any available funds in the seller's PayPal balance at that time. However, recovery is not guaranteed and is limited only to the amounts that PayPal can recover from the seller's Account. Any amounts collected from the seller will be placed in your Account."

So if seller closes account, empties account, whatever.....no refund!

ALSO, No such thing as SNAD (significantly not as described) protection outside of ebay.

"You may escalate the Dispute to a Claim within 20 days of the date you filed the Dispute. PayPal will make a final decision for some - but not all - Claims. You should not escalate a Dispute for Significantly Not as Described (SNAD) to a Claim because PayPal will not make a decision on a SNAD Claim under the PayPal Buyer Complaint Policy."

So if seller ships wrong item, damaged item, or empty box, you are out of luck.

How to protect yourself? Make sure to pay with Credit Card rather than Paypal funds. Paypal tries everything possible to deflect you from using a Credit Card because they eat the CC fee. You have to zero out your account balance first and then select Credit Card payment method, otherwise it automatically uses your existing paypal funds first. Using your credit card may provide back-up protection from your Credit Card company in the form of a chargeback.

Also, when making payment, be sure to provide a good description of the item including the web link to the forum post. If you simply send money, paypal has no idea what it is for and then it becomes a 'he said, she said' issue. NEVER mark payment as a "Gift", as you will have NO protection at all, not even INR dispute.

Anyway, we all agree that Paypal adds some distinct complications to the process, both for buyer and seller, but unfortunately it's the most convenient method of sending funds. Bank wire and Money Orders are fine, but require even more trust on the part of the buyer.

 

Ladies and Gentlemen, here is what I do when buying a watch. I've never sold one so I cant give advice there. A lot has already been covered in the original post yet I just thought I'd share what I myself do when buying online.

a) ask if he has references.
b) if he has a high feedback ebay account, send him a message via ebay. If he replies via ebay its a good thing (even if you are not buying via ebay).
c) Ask him to set the watch to a specific time and date. Get him to email you the photos.
d) if he has the original receipt, ask for a photo
e) When you get his email, put the IP address headers into an IPLookup. If the emails do not originate from another area which he claims to be in, its not good (this may not work if the seller uses free email accounts like gmail, yahoo, hotmail etc)
f) check his post count. Then go to his profile and look at his activity. If he has thousands of posts and they look legit, then its a good thing. If he has low posts and most are just random senseless replies & threads, then its not so good.
g) when paying, ask for a paypal invoice that clearly states what you are getting. Get him to send a payment request first. Get seller to use works like Genuine, authentic etc. Fund from your credit card.

In my last purchase the seller even emailed me from his company email address where he had a profile on the law firms website. He checked out to be a partner of the firm which inspired trust.

Then its all up to gut feeling.

I must say that I sometimes feel sorry for the sellers that I put them through my German interrogation; but so far all the people I bought my watches from have been happy to comply with my requests. Usually if a seller is legit he will understand why you are trying to be sure before buying. The last guy even asked for my references as a buyer, which was a good sign.

I gotta admit, every time I buy a watch online my heart races and I think; 'could this seller be a smarter scammer then I a buyer'. Its all part of the experience.

 

Hello Everyone,
Just wanted to add my .2 cents. I work in law enforcement and I would avoid accepting any type of money order (even postal and american express) for a watch. These can be counterfeited and with the way today's banks work, you could deposit this and not find out unitl 7-14 days later when the bank takes back its money from you that you wre scammed. Yes, a buyer could still reverse charges on you if they payed with a credit card but in that case the credit card company has to then contact you to find out your side of the story before they reverse the charge on you. In this case pictures of the watch, shipping receipts, copies of tracking information and signature upon delivery become your best friends.

When thought of in this way the 3% fee Paypal charges doesn't seem like much to avoid all the headaches, specially with big ticket items.

 

I have seen many comments about "post count" from numerous people popping up on WUS when it comes to purhcasing a watch from a seller and all I will say is that if you are going to take into account post count, do it for the ENTIRE community as Boots says. I know Boots on other fora as well. MWR being one. Heck, most of you won't even know me here. I use a different screen name here as this is an older screen name. On other forums, I'm John_in_Tn. The only consisten thing between my 2 screen names is my email address.

Look at my count...Some of you would view this as LOW for a seller yet if take into account all the other fora that I'm a member of, and review the actual content of my posts on this forum as well as the others you would see that I have a high post count.

The list up top while being helpful to some is a bit.....paranoid to a certain degree. So are some of the comments about facebook, passport photos, DL photos etc.

#1. Someone asks for my facebook info...sorry out of luck. Never been to facebook and don't ever plan on going, nor twitter, or myspace or any of those other places.

#2. Forget about me giving you my passport or DL picture.

#3. Newspaper? Huh? Like Boots, I can't remember when I last bought a physical newspaper.

#4. Like Boots, if as a seller I feel you are wasting my time with mundane questions trying to make certain I am who I say I am without doing any research on your end, I very well might tell you to take a hike as I have others who will buy from me.

I might not be a dealer or a collector to the degree of others on this or any other forum but I have made enough high dollar sales to know that my reputation is sound and I am who I am. I'll assist any interested buyer in establishing that using the COMMUNITY but will not jump through hoops to do so.

Just my 5 cents.

 

Re: ** warning ** scammers alert ** UPDATE

i'd steer clear of this fella. although he's on ebay he's using the same photos(bad ones at that) that AMSCLOTHING(recently banned member) used for a bunk sale on our lovely forum.

link and new user name.
http://cgi.ebay.com/OMEGA-Seamaster...mZ140372847820QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item20aedfaccc#ht_646wt_1085

watchmcclures on ebay

 

Re: How to help AVOID being scammed cashiers check

I agree a USPS money order or bank cashier's check can be faked. But I will accept them. If it's a USPS MO just bring to the PO to verify. A cashier's check I will call the bank and verify it was from them. Plus do some checking on the person sending it.

 

If you want to accept a cashier's check or a money order do so but just make it perfectly clear to the buyer that it will delay shipping the watch by a week till all the funds clear.

I only will accept a USPS money order and I'll hit the post office late in the day when they have cash on hand. I'll just cash it right there. If I have two due to the USPS limitations on amount, I'll hit them twice. I've already told the buyer to expect a delay.

As for a cashier's check, I deposit it at my bank and I'll wait. Even after the funds show up in my account I wait and I'll wait, and I'll wait. After around a week, I'll confirm with the bank.

Of course, IMO, if the buyer will send a cashier's check then they should be willing to do a money wire at which point I will let them know I do accept that. This is of course after they have verified references that are requested.

 

New Scam ALERT

There are 2 new forum scams that I want you to keep an eye out for. The first was reported by a member here and these are the details. We think they are "farming" for information to perpetrate fraud: These are messages that we received from a member:

I responded to this (PM and email) as soon as I saw it. in fact I offered him $30 because I saw that someone else had beat me to it. I also asked for paypal info so that I could make payment.

Here is his response via PM:

it sells for $25 including shipment.shipment is by Swiss Air and it takes a maximum of 6 hours to reach you wherever you are located in the world.so if you are interested,get back to me with your details like full names,address,phone number,etc so i can start immediately with the shipping process.please contact me directly using all4hipfun@hotmail.com

thanks and waiting.

WOW!

Two more emails while I was typing the ast alert to you guys.

Email 1-

all i am asking for the watch is $25 and not $30.you won't be paying the money to me but to the shipping company.please get back to me with your details like full names,address,phone number,etc so i could commence immediately with the shipping process.when i arrange with the shipping company to ship the watch to your location,you will receive an email from them telling you how to pay the money.

thanks and waiting

Second Email-

you won't pay the money to me.you will pay it to the shipping company.they will receive the money on my behalf.you will be given the opportunity to track your item online.

Hello-

in response to your PM.

I have already sent one email staing that I would take it.

Next step... tell me the address linked to your paypal account and I will tranfer the funds.

Paypal will then release to you my shipping address, etc.

Thank you, *******

Now I'm really thinking he's a bad guy. (he's calling himself John Wayne BTW) Starting to feel like what he really wants is peoples personal info for purposes of identity theft... and charging the victim $25 for the priviledge of being scammed.

Do this ring the same way for you guys?

THE SECOND SCAM:

A wire transfer seems fine right because it's a wire. Well scammers are now depositing funds into your bank account that appear to be a wire. But they aren't a wire, they are deposits. They will show up in your account, sometimes for weeks. That is, until the bank finds out the funds are no good. By that time, you have sent the watch on it's way and the bank has taken the money back from you. So if you receive a wire, make absolutely sure it is a wire transfer and that the funds are clear and good before sending the watch out.

 

Re: New Scam ALERT

I just want to say thanks to the mods who spend their time making this a safer place to trade and practice our hobby. I think the occasional 'hand slap' I recieve for overstepping a rule or pushing limits as a small price to pay for what they give us in return.

I personally visit many other watch forum sites, and find them all enjoyable and informative. However, wen it comes to trading, none help me to feel safer through sound advice, constant policing for fraudulant posts, and the "watch deals" forum where we can search out references based on the experiences of others.

Watchuseek stands heads taller than the other sites for this reason. Thank you mods for helping to make it so. That is why Watchuseek is my "home" forum site.

And to my fellow WIS some advice... don't just judge a post foul and say, "H*ll no, I'm not falling for that.", then click out and forget about it. Hit the TRAINGLE. Warn others. We have to play our part in keeping this a safer place too.

Leo

 

Hi
I Pm'd Broker and he said ok to post. As an ex cop I have seen some cons and am never surprised, if someone wants something badly enough they will try until the get one..even one!

To help out on the anti-scamming front add this to your list, or make it part of the first step, either way it can help make or break the deal.

Have the seller set the date and time to your choice, have the seller put the watch at pre-set time onto that days paper or month & year calendar.

IF this sounds a bit Proof of Life stuff... yep...its not your life its your money and you worked for it, so protect it. If the seller can't come to the party stalls/delays, all bets are off and advise your friendly local Mod and have the advert removed etc etc.
Hope this helps!!
Roger

 

If I were an administrator of this forum I would consider creating some "safe deal" mechanism, like for an extra $100 I can send my money to an specially assigned and trusted Forum member, and then, if i receive the watch all right, that member transfers my funds further to the seller, and leaves extra $50 for Forum needs. Guess that can protect buyers as well as sellers who are afraid that the buyer would try to get his money back from paypal after he receives the watch.

That is just wrought with problems, too many of which I wont even begin to touch because it all comes down to just one: liability

There's no way a forum will open itself to the liabilities of being involved as a third party in a financial transaction. Assuming all transactions go according as planned, there is still a lot of work to make sure everything goes right. Now add in the time/effort of straightening out transactions that sour. It would be a nightmare, and if I was a mod, i would decline to be a part of such a process, because not only would this forum be open to liabilities, but I personally would be a possible target as well.

 

As someone who it appears has been scammed recently, I would say the biggest thing to avoid as a buyer is the wire transfer.

As previously discussed, there really is no easy way of getting you money back.

Even the most trusted seller can get hit by a bus. How do you hope to get you money back? If they live on their own you are stuck.

I'm hinging my hopes on the Small Claims court. If I can't get my money back i'm looking at a $4000 hit

 

Kind of in a "questioning" frame of mind about this one......

If you receive PayPal, then transfer into your account, THEN the buyer contests the transaction, doesn't PayPal have the right (power) to dip into your account for those funds while investigating?

I have a watch for sale here: https://www.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=373486

This brand new registrant wants to buy: Milo81, ZERO posts!

He lives in Singapore and is willing to pay the additional cost of shipping. Wants to use PayPal and I told him I would ship after transfer of funds from PayPal to my account.

Also wants a declared value of about 1/3 the sales price to avoid duties/taxes...whatever. Told him I would NOT take the hit on the difference if ANYTHING went wrong and he agreed.

How many red flags do you see here?

 

I see 3 red flags /issues.

1) obviously the ZERO posts..... I would atleast try to get solid references from verifiable traders or the biggy to me is get an EBAY id from the buyer ....verify a good ebay record, and verify by communicating through Ebay's messaging system, which I have done before with a buyer from singapore.

2) If the item actually gets lost in shipping, Paypal would issue a default judgement of refund for the FULL amount back to the buyer. And your only 'possbile' recourse is insurance which you only declared a 1/3 value.... which is never guaranteed by Postal Insurance even if they were fully at fault of losing your item.

I would never just take the word of the buyer that they would take the hit of $1200 US, in the event of a lost item.....AFTER they got their full refund from Paypal. :rodekaart

3) If it's a fraudulent paypal payment, determined after shipping......the seller is always screwed, obviously

 

I think I have been had, but I didn't do my due diligence, so I only have myself to blame.

I was paid via paypal in a timely manner, shipped international via USPS (which doesn't provide tracking unless it is express). Item was shipped and hasn't been received and buyer is screaming for a refund. Thing is, I know I won't get the watches or money back once they are received.

I Just looked and this person signed up 2 weeks before the sale, had 0 posts, and an unverified paypal address. I was just in a hurry to make the sales as it was a hectic time. I am just out of luck?

I think it best to always ship insured and registered/tracked. And make it a compulsory part of the deal.
As for stopping low post count members and banning overseas buyers:
NEGATIVES:
* I'm low on the post count here
* I am in Australia
POSITIVES:
* I have 98.4% pos feedback on ebay (1 idiot out of 130 deals, what do u do?)
* I buy and sell watches from all over the world
* I have money
Would you want to exclude me from all the fun?????

So the ebay feedback and a proper email address is a good idea.

 

As a new and low posting member, I find it rather intimidating attempting to garner these "respectable" post counts. I'm on here pouring over threads but I'm often rather abashed to volunteer my input; first, I'm new, second, the fund of knowledge that so many members here appear to be, make one who is new to formalized horolphilia near-postless at the dire fear of sounding rather stupid.

How is someone like me to persuade a seller that I'm an honest fellow?

I don't buy a lot of things on ebay.
(12 purchases in two years?)

I post very little.
(I rarely think my thoughts are worth immortalizing in kilobytes)

I think sending my DL or Passport is ridiculous.

There's got to be a better solution...How can I begin to purchase here if to purchase you've got to have references, but to get references you've got to make purchases. A paradox of watches.

*side note: I made my first purchase on here a few days ago, I'm very hopeful I've not been swindled. I'm excited for it to show, if it does that is.

 

How is someone like me to persuade a seller that I'm an honest fellow?

I think the best you can do is offer to provide all of the information a seller asks of you (within reason--I agree, no sending passport/license photos) and to make every overture that shows you are a legit buyer.

One thing I have found instills confidence in sellers on deals I do is that I ship to my work address. Not only is my work address a secure, "real" location (a law firm and confirmed PayPal address), but it allows the seller to confirm the existence and address of my firm on the web, and to access my profile on the firm's website.

I realize this may not work for you, but it is something I've come up with that seems to work. I acknowledge I have a high post count, but I think my willingness to be transparent about where the watch is going probably does more to get a deal done than my post count.

 

How about agreeing to a price, seller lists on ebay with a 'buy it now' and the purchaser buys it and pays the sellers fees?
That way the deal is protected.

 

This is pretty smart. I wish I had thought of that when I bought a watch here.
Both parties get protected and both parties increase feedback score when transaction completes.
Sounds win win to me.

 

This will be kind of stream of consciousness so bear with me. Also, apologies in advance if anything is a repeat.

If you are buying and preparing to send money for a watch, something else you can do is check out their IP address. Specifically, get the full header on the incoming email, look at the XOriginating IP address (last hop) and run it for location/ISP. At the very least, if the guy says he and his watch are in Iowa, and the IP address comes up as Ukraine- there is an issue.

Try running a Google search for the email address plus the "@" sign but without the domain i.e. search the term "Badguy@." This way, if the bad guy is using multiple domains i.e. GMail, MSN, etc. they will show up. Conversely, if goodguy@hotmail.com shows up with some regularity in other forums, discussions, etc. if may lend creedence to who they are.

Wire transfers = bad juju. Since Western Union can be picked up at a WU location anywhere in the world (at least the last time I checked), don't use them. You may intend for the money to go to a location in Iowa, but the bad guy can cash out in Vancouver.

Some resources:

Internet Crime Complaint Center's prevention tips
http://www.ic3.gov/preventiontips.aspx

Federal Trade Commission Consumer Information
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/consumer.shtm

(They have the link to get the actual free credit report. You can do it online, believe it or not)

Postal Inspection Service Fraud Prevention Videos
http://www.deliveringtrust.com/

Ultimate White Pages
http://www.theultimates.com/white/

USDOJ Inmate Locator
http://www.bop.gov/iloc2/LocateInmate.jsp

Provides information on current inmates, but can also show if someone has been incarcerated within the federal system since 1982. I know it works since one of the guys I arrested several years ago (and has been released) is still listed. It won't tell you the offense. For other states, Google "_______ State Inmate Lookup." Some states will give you the information as to the crime.

Ripoff Report
http://www.ripoffreport.com/

I'll check my list of open source websites when I get to the office tomorrow and see if I missed anything. There is a lot one can do without running NCIC checks.

 

Every case will be different. There are legit sellers out there with little/no references and little/no contributions to the forums. I would still buy from these sellers if they show a little good faith and put their item on eBay for me to grab. The fact is that the buyer is put at a much greater risk than the seller. As a seller who has already built up a reputation, you might find something unreasonable. However, you have to look at it from the new buyer's point of view too. It doesn't matter how many posts or contributions someone has in this community; that doesn't make them trustworthy.

No matter how good the community is, it still exists only on the internet, the ultimate medium for deceit.

Please understand that there will sometimes be instances, whether because of seller seniority or watch value, where being a little over cautious can help a deal go through. And every deal that goes through garners more trust from both sides. I think the eBay suggestion is a good way to build up the reps of new sellers.

Again, keep in mind, this thread is for suggestions. There is no algorithm with definite right answers. There are also no wrong answers.

And if someone did ask you to put your watch on eBay for them or do whatever else that you think is unreasonable, just explain to them you are not prepared to do those things and point them to your long list of references. Sure, you can not respond and wait for someone else to come along but you just potentially alienated someone from ever joining your community. If you want to build a community, you can't simply shut people out just for trying to be careful with their money.

(Also just some FYI. At any given time, the Sales forum has over 3x as much viewers and at least 10x as much post activity in terms of thread creation as any other sub forum. This means that a major function of this site is for selling/trading watches, whether that was intended or not. Again, this means that there may be legit sellers using this site for simply that, and not really contributing to the "community".)

 

Hi. Several of you have mentioned holding off on shipping a watch until the funds from a cashiers check or money order have cleared. There appears to be an understanding that "cleared" means the funds have been received in good order and are now guaranteed.

That assumption is false. At least insofar as US banks are concerned. I cannot speak for the financial institutions of countries other than my own, but I think it wise to assume they function in a similar manner unless and until you have information to the contrary.

In 1987 the US government passed Regulation CC which specifies funds availability standards for banks. Essentially this means that the bank must make the money from your deposits available to you within a certain length of time based on the type of item deposited, and that this policy must be published by the bank.

When a bank tells you that your deposit has "cleared," what they mean is that the funds are now available pursuant to the published policy. It DOES NOT mean that they have received funds for the item from the other financial institution. The bank is merely following federal law by making the funds available in the specified time.

Unfortunately, many fraudulent items are so well done that it is nearly impossible even for a trained bank employee to detect them. Sometimes the bank finds out only when the item is returned to them as uncollectable. I have seen this take up to 4 weeks. Even in our modern era of electronic banking, we are still talking about a physical printed item that must sometimes wind its way through the system before it can be identified.

When an item that has previously "cleared" suddenly comes back as fraudulent, the bank will remove the funds from your account, or require you to otherwise return the funds to them. This is quite legal and you have no recourse against the bank.

If you accept ANY type of check or money order in payment for a watch sale, please exercise the utmost caution. Do not assume that the item "clearing" means you are safe.

Jeannie