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Discussion Starter #1
Accuracy tests from my 2nd Chronomaster AQ4030 are now in:

+6.6 SPY on wrist 24/7
+14 SPY at room temperature
Is it outside factory specks of +/-5 SPY? You be the judge.


Last year I owned another HAQ, Citizen AQ1040. The accuracy test was:
+5.2 SPY on wrist 24.7
+11 SPY at room temperature

I found many posts by Citizen HAQ owners who repeatedly report Citizen HAQ manufactured in the last 5 years or so running too fast, outside specks.

Are there any reasons for me to stay with Citizen HAQ?

My Bluetooth-sync Oceanus syncs 100% 4 times a day, is reliable and dead on accurate.

Are Citizen HAQ days over ?..
 

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Accuracy tests from my 2nd Chronomaster AQ4030 are now in:

+6.6 SPY on wrist 24/7
+14 SPY at room temperature
Is it outside factory specks of +/-5 SPY? You be the judge.


Last year I owned another HAQ, Citizen AQ1040. The accuracy test was:
+5.2 SPY on wrist 24.7
+11 SPY at room temperature

I found many posts by Citizen HAQ owners who repeatedly report Citizen HAQ manufactured in the last 5 years or so running too fast, outside specks.

Are there any reasons for me to stay with Citizen HAQ?

My Bluetooth-sync Oceanus syncs 100% 4 times a day, is reliable and dead on accurate.

Are Citizen HAQ days over ?..
How are you doing your testing?

TIA

Looks like Mr. Moderator beat me to it :-!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
- Test span was 2 month with each watch (on wrist). Several days (watch 1) or two weeks (watch 2) at room temp.

- Accuracy source: internet time server App on Android, synced immediately before each measurement.
Multiple repeat measurements were done on each day to confirm error is small and value converge on the same answer.

- Measurement method: 30fps video, frame-by-frame analysis to observe second hand movement with about 30ms resolution.

Method was robust enough to give ball park accuracy closely enough after about ~1 day.
After several days, accuracy converged on more or less a constant value.
When day by day measurements no longer changed the answer, test was complete.

When averaged accuracy remained 6.60+/-0.02 for multiple days in succession, I called it done 6.6SPY.
 

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I too have heard complaints about Citizen claimed vs in the field accuracy. I don't own one, but there have been other mentions of this on f9.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Citizen customer support says
"accuracy depends on humidity (?) and time of year (??), and may change depending on month (see graph)." and that "after a complete year watch should be within 5SPY".

Great if true. But, I have zero evidence for this. My watches never decelerated and tried to offset the out-of-specks gain.

Has anyone ever seen Citizen HAQ to go from positive error to negative error on a different time of a year, as Citizen customer support proposes the watch will do?
 

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Citizen customer support says
"accuracy depends on humidity (?) and time of year (??), and may change depending on month (see graph)." and that "after a complete year watch should be within 5SPY".

Great if true. But, I have zero evidence for this. My watches never decelerated and tried to offset the out-of-specks gain.

Has anyone ever seen Citizen HAQ to go from positive error to negative error on a different time of a year, as Citizen customer support proposes the watch will do?
I have not tested a Citizen HAQ so I can't comment on that, but I certainly have observed such cyclical rate changes with my Omega Calibre 1666C:



Tested using a LeoNTP Stratum I Time Server and 120 frame/sec video:




Daily rate varied from about -1.0 Sec/Year to about -16.0 Sec/Year.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
This is how forum's wisdom could be useful. Amazing data.

I wonder what is the reason for the periodicity. Can it be seasonal temperature variation? Internal design?
(one model is that two closely tuned quartz crystals have a "beating" period of about a year)
 

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I, too, would give it a full year. I wore and timed my Citizen almost every day for the better part of a year. I bought the watch in the winter and as summer drew on the rate did, indeed, increase as expected. The change was relatively small, however these things always are small when the entire span of the accuracy range is just five seconds out of thirty-five million. I was initially quite determined to give it a full year because the pattern suggested that there might be a corresponding slow down in the following winter.

In my case, however, the watch passed 6 SPY of cumulative gain before twelve months were up and there was absolutely no chance of a winter dip being big enough to correct it to back under 5 SPY (barring a freak, month-long deep freeze, which I thought was most unlikely in sub-tropical Hong Kong), so I opted to send it back to Japan under warranty rather than see out the entire year.

My vintage, 1970s Citizen HAQs, on the other hand, have been (or had been - I sold one) very consistent sub-5 SPY performers. Then again, when one of them was off-spec (shortly after acquisition and restoration), I was able to simply open it up and regulate it. I fine-tuned that watch to run just perfectly for the conditions in which I was keeping it. Can't do that with the modern crop of Citizen HAQs.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
"In my case, however, the watch passed 6 SPY of cumulative gain before twelve months were up and there was absolutely no chance of a winter dip being big enough to correct it to back under 5 SPY"

So, you even took the time Citizen asks for. If this not a proof of a systematic issue, what is a proof?

By the way, my AQ4030 runs +17 SPY at +7 oC. Citizen specks are 5SPY between 5-40 oC. Just saying.
 

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Watch rates vary by temperature. Even HAQ watches, although less so.

I guess Citizen sort of assumes that people wear the watches continuously. That exposes the watch to less temperature variations, and makes it easier to stay within spec.

I can't blame them for that assumption.

I do blame the sloppy seconds per year specification. To me it is quite meaningless.

A COSC specification is much more meaningful.

Return the watch, if still under warranty.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
"sloppy seconds per year specification" -- precisely.

"underpromise and overdeliver" they do not :)

All Citizen needs to do is claim "20 SPY".
Not imply their models are better than Grand Seiko. Apparently, accuracy is the same. Perpetual calendar and lume would still make their watch pretty attractive, and users would be happy when accuracy turns our to be better than 20 SPY.
 

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"sloppy seconds per year specification" -- precisely.

"underpromise and overdeliver" they do not :)

All Citizen needs to do is claim "20 SPY".
Not imply their models are better than Grand Seiko. Apparently, accuracy is the same. Perpetual calendar and lume would still make their watch pretty attractive, and users would be happy when accuracy turns our to be better than 20 SPY.
And they can happily continue making claims while nobody can be bothered:
- checking the actual performance
- return the watch when sold under false pretenses
 

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It wouldn't bother me, if I'm honest.
I would be more concerned about sending it to Japan for a service and how long that would take. (weeks, more probably, months) I'd rather have it on my wrist. :-!
Of course, if you have a local Citizen service department that can adjust/service a chronomaster, then send it away.
 

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It wouldn't bother me, if I'm honest.
I would be more concerned about sending it to Japan for a service and how long that would take. (weeks, more probably, months) I'd rather have it on my wrist. :-!
Of course, if you have a local Citizen service department that can adjust/service a chronomaster, then send it away.
I sent back both my AQ1000-58B and my EBJ74-1742 for rate adjustment. They were gone for months and when I finally got them back the AQ1000-58B's rate was unchanged and the EBJ74-1742's was worse than before I had sent it off.

It is worth noting, though, that not everyone has had such bad luck. Plenty of people seem to be happy with their Citizens and I do believe there are more than a few examples that run within spec.
 

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I don't want to go off topic but that is just why I opted for the GS SBGN005 instead of a Citizen. It has lume and IAHH (but no PC) and, if off-spec, I can regulate it by myself avoiding to send it back in Japan and wait months. Moreover I don't wear a single watch more than 30 hours per week so I won't meet the requirements stated by Citizen to meet their 5spy accuracy.
 

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I do not think that any of the VHP watch manufacturers have enough confidence to give a precise warranty of how accurate the watch will be.
I would like to see a simple, practical warranty :-
..So long as the watch is within 10 to 30C temperature its error will never exceed 5 seconds for 1 year after adjustment..
No 'weasel words' and I think that the idea of a once-per-year adjustment-event would be good for the sales-pitch.
But note that :-
.. Four seconds fast 1 month after adjustment is within the specification.
.. To account for travel and summer-time a watch cannot be a 'practical' VHP without IAHH.
.. You can add legal small-print to the temperature-spec, but if the rate is within spec over 10 to 30C the watch will not go out of the ( 1 year) spec due to 1 night in the bathroom of an ice-hotel
 
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