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Yeah we will agree to disagree, as does the market. But thanks for your perspective!
If you’re going to go by sheer sales volume then Casio must surely be included as a haute horologie player with their G-Shock range!
G-Shocks offer innovation, more complications than you can shake a proverbial stick at, brilliant design and are a hugely successful brand within the global watch market.
Almost by its very definition haute horologie is an exclusive, low volume product which will generally feature beautifully detailed, hand produced and finished watches incorporating innovative complications.
Think George Daniels, Roger Smith, Philippe Dufour and the like.
Does that still sound like Rolex?


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You can notice that the statement seems like it's saying something, but has no actual substance. There is nothing there that can be objectively measured, such as a "noble" material, or the "codes" of the "art" of watchmaking.
In my opinion you can criticise Rolex for many things but they are class leaders when it comes to brand marketing.
So far as I understand it, they refine a relatively basic 3-hand calibre, marry it to an essentially conservative case design and get top bucks for the resulting product - which they then reinvest in more great marketing.
It still amazes me how many people believe that their watches were the first to reach and return from the summit of Everest; although reading carefully I don’t think I’ve ever seen them explicitly state that either Sir Edmund Hillary or Tenzing Norgay wore a Rolex for the successful summit attempt which seems strange to me given such a historic event.


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In my opinion you can criticise Rolex for many things but they are class leaders when it comes to brand marketing.
So far as I understand it, they refine a relatively basic 3-hand calibre, marry it to an essentially conservative case design and get top bucks for the resulting product - which they then reinvest in more great marketing.
It still amazes me how many people believe that their watches were the first to reach and return from the summit of Everest; although reading carefully I don’t think I’ve ever seen them explicitly state that either Sir Edmund Hillary or Tenzing Norgay wore a Rolex for the successful summit attempt which seems strange to me given such a historic event.
We are long post-truth now: just saying it makes it true. For example, the Speedy Pro single-handedly saved NASA in 1970. Nothing else was capable of timing 14 seconds to around 0.2 second of accuracy.
 

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We are long post-truth now: just saying it makes it true. For example, the Speedy Pro single-handedly saved NASA in 1970. Nothing else was capable of timing 14 seconds to around 0.2 second of accuracy.
The Speedy wasn't chosen for its ability to do that under normal circumstances. It was chosen after its competitors couldn't handle the rigors that NASA imposed on all the watches that were in the running.... only Speedy survived.

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The Speedy wasn't chosen for its ability to do that under normal circumstances. It was chosen after its competitors couldn't handle the rigors that NASA imposed on all the watches that were in the running.... only Speedy survived.
Indeed it did, nearly 60 years ago. But the myth self-perpetuates and becomes the truth. Such as: the Omega won, because it was specifically designed for space and all the others were casual watches; or it won, because all the others had sapphire crystals that shattered if you looked at them wrong; or it won because it was the only manual wind, and everyone knows that automatics don't work in space.
 

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We are long post-truth now: just saying it makes it true. For example, the Speedy Pro single-handedly saved NASA in 1970. Nothing else was capable of timing 14 seconds to around 0.2 second of accuracy.
No doubt that, in the new parlance, it’s their truth and therefore beyond scrutiny!


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Indeed it did, nearly 60 years ago. But the myth self-perpetuates and becomes the truth. Such as: the Omega won, because it was specifically designed for space and all the others were casual watches; or it won, because all the others had sapphire crystals that shattered if you looked at them wrong; or it won because it was the only manual wind, and everyone knows that automatics don't work in space.
I never saw any claims that the Speedmaster was specifically designed for space, rather that NASA bought a handful of chronographs from a local jewellery store and the Speedmaster was the only one to survive their testing regime - which possibly makes it an even more impressive achievement.
Developments since then such as the crown guards have no doubt helped make the watch more robust for space flight - but good luck to them


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If you’re going to go by sheer sales volume then Casio must surely be included as a haute horologie player with their G-Shock range!
G-Shocks offer innovation, more complications than you can shake a proverbial stick at, brilliant design and are a hugely successful brand within the global watch market.
Almost by its very definition haute horologie is an exclusive, low volume product which will generally feature beautifully detailed, hand produced and finished watches incorporating innovative complications.
Think George Daniels, Roger Smith, Philippe Dufour and the like.
Does that still sound like Rolex?


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What? LOL. I stated Rolex is not HH. Not sure what you are saying
 
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According to this article from Forbes,

In 2017, the FHH [Fondation de la Haute Horlogerie] published a white paper detailing the requirements for a brand to be considered haute horology. They also named 64 watchmakers, including longstanding brands as well as newcomers and microbrands that met the requirements. These requirements include a certain amount of in-house production, hand-finished parts, complex movements, and decorative features [emphasis mine]. Any innovations created by the watchmaker are also given significant weight. This allows newer brands to earn the coveted haute horology designation, provided they contribute something significant to the field. Keep in mind that this designation applies to a manufacturer as a whole, not a particular watch. So a haute horology manufacturer can still produce simpler, less ornate timepieces. If nothing else, you know a haute horology watchmaker is highly qualified.​
 

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According to this article from Forbes,

In 2017, the FHH [Fondation de la Haute Horlogerie] published a white paper detailing the requirements for a brand to be considered haute horology. They also named 64 watchmakers, including longstanding brands as well as newcomers and microbrands that met the requirements. These requirements include a certain amount of in-house production, hand-finished parts, complex movements, and decorative features [emphasis mine]. Any innovations created by the watchmaker are also given significant weight. This allows newer brands to earn the coveted haute horology designation, provided they contribute something significant to the field. Keep in mind that this designation applies to a manufacturer as a whole, not a particular watch. So a haute horology manufacturer can still produce simpler, less ornate timepieces. If nothing else, you know a haute horology watchmaker is highly qualified.​
It's another one of those industry groups whose purpose is to promote its members — i.e., those who fund it. Some of their criteria seem valid, but some of the companies listed are questionable. Certainly not the final word on what constitutes HH.
 

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We are long post-truth now: just saying it makes it true. For example, the Speedy Pro single-handedly saved NASA in 1970. Nothing else was capable of timing 14 seconds to around 0.2 second of accuracy.
Not a claim I've ever seen, but it appears that in addition to being a post-truth world, we are most certainly into a world of endless hyperbole like your post.

Omega certainly markets the hell out of getting the Silver Snoopy award from NASA, as would any brand who had done the same. They would be absolutely foolish not to do so.
 

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One of my pet peeves is the idea that most watch engineering is that complicated, compared to say cars. The tourbillon was invented in 1801! Any company that wants to pay for it can make them. We've known how to do it for literally 220 years!

A Rolex automatic has 200-300 parts, maybe fifty of which are moving parts-- obviously this goes up with more complications. The average automobile has 20,000 30,000 parts, 2,000ish of which move.

The tolerances on a watch have to be pretty tight, but the consequences of a mistake are....your watch is fast or slow a few seconds per day. If the tolerances on your engine are wrong, the consequences can be catastrophic.

Let's not even get into the sort of tolerances that are needed for your average computer chip.

Watches are beautiful, some of the high complication models are really interesting. But I hope folks understand that for the vast majority of even luxury watches, you're not paying for engineering. You're paying for marketing and status. Making this stuff just isn't that complicated compared to many many other products.
 

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One of my pet peeves is the idea that most watch engineering is that complicated, compared to say cars. The tourbillon was invented in 1801! Any company that wants to pay for it can make them. We've known how to do it for literally 220 years!

A Rolex automatic has 200-300 parts, maybe fifty of which are moving parts-- obviously this goes up with more complications. The average automobile has 20,000 30,000 parts, 2,000ish of which move.

The tolerances on a watch have to be pretty tight, but the consequences of a mistake are....your watch is fast or slow a few seconds per day. If the tolerances on your engine are wrong, the consequences can be catastrophic.

Let's not even get into the sort of tolerances that are needed for your average computer chip.

Watches are beautiful, some of the high complication models are really interesting. But I hope folks understand that for the vast majority of even luxury watches, you're not paying for engineering. You're paying for marketing and status. Making this stuff just isn't that complicated compared to many many other products.
Largely agree. Coming from an engineering background, working for a large multinational that made precision parts, the tolerances are not terribly tight inside a typical wrist watch.

The one quibble I'll have with your argument is scale - working to a tolerance that is fairly tight, while working at a scale of the type in wrist watches, comes with a specific set of challenges. Having said that, the machinery needed to do this has been perfected over 100's of years, which is why you can buy an ETA 2824-2, not even top grade, that can be made to run within the tightest industry standards for average timing, like COSC, METAS, and the Rolex "trust us" tolerances.

Back before quartz, you paid for the engineering and precision needed for good timing - good timekeeping wasn't cheap. Quartz changed that forever, and now the mechanical watches are almost at the same place with regards to the cost of timekeeping. Now watches are sold as completely different things...
 

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This is not an Omega claim...never heard of this journal before...
I don't really care; it's there, in black and white.
There is no claim made in that article that nothing else could have done the timing, so again the hyperbole you are spewing is notable.
You can read dozens of other breathless articles, although I'm not going to waste time collecting them all and posting them here (I didn't collect them in the first place). The hype is indeed notable.
 
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