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This is what I want to know. Is it true? Which movement and what model? Is it fixed or not? Was it in an older model? Which one and year? Thanks
 

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Re: Is there any problems with the rotor arbor that causes permanent damage to movement pl

This is what I want to know. Is it true? Which movement and what model? Is it fixed or not? Was it in an older model? Which one and year? Thanks
http://people.timezone.com/mdisher/andrewb/3135/3135_1.htm

This watch has been well worn for about 7 years without any service. When I checked it, I noticed a strange noise inside the watch. The winding weight (rotor) touched bridges and the case back while rotating. I hoped that perhaps the automatic winding module was not screwed in properly. But after one look atthe movement it was clear that the problem is in the oscillating weight axle. The movement was full of red dust - a product of wear. I've checked the rotor axle jewel - it was dirty but not damaged. As for the axle - it was worn enough to allow the rotor to touch movement parts.

Unfortunately, Rolex still does not use ball bearings in its top calibers. Instead, there is a plain sleeve bearing, and proper oiling is critical. When the lubricant evaporates or migrates, the metal axle experiences wear against the jewel. In Fig. 6 above you can notice a rut left by the jewel. If Rolex specialists had designed an automatic device based on ball bearings (like in most modern automatic devices) - the watch would be more reliable.

http://www.chronometrie.com/eta2892/eta2892.html

That’s one of the reasons for the Rolex’s winding efficiency, the weight spins on a tiny diameter post. Unfortunately they’ve taken winding efficiency to the extreme. The net result is that said tiny diameter post doesn’t offer enough support to the weight. This results in the weight scraping up against the movement bridges, even with mild shocks.
Two independent watchmakers, two seperate and unrelated reviews, same conclusion...this effects all current Jewel bearing movements, and wasn't a problem in their older movements (cal 3035 and 15XX series) as the rotor arbor in those was thicker...Also it has more of an impact on the mens models as the rotor weight is large, wheras with the womens models it isn't heavy enough to have this problem. The Daytona movement has a ball bearing and thus is fine.

With proper service it shouldn't be a problem, but it can and does happen.
 

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Re: Is there any problems with the rotor arbor that causes permanent damage to movement pl

Hi Mathew, why am I not surprised you answered this question. LOL

Now for the other side. Walt O's famous review of the Rolex movement is considered by just about everyone as very slanted, myself included. I have read many of his reviews and Rolex seems to be the only one he didn't like. Strange IMHO.

As for Andrew Babanin's review I have corresponded with him about his review. He just stated the rotor could be a problem, possibly the weakest part of the movement and when worn can cause other damage.

However, as he pointed out, it's an easy piece to replace and inexpensive. The reason it's made that way it that the main rotor may wear but takes a lot of abuse and sits on a bushing to absorb more shock rather than a jewel, which might break.

AFAIK this is correct. I am not a watchmaker. :roll: Always nice to hear the other side, Mathew. :-! =) maverick

BTW, the 3135 is considered a very good, robust movement by most all the horological world.
 

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Re: Is there any problems with the rotor arbor that causes permanent damage to movement pl

Hello Maverick,

As you are not surprised I posted a reply I am also not surprised you replied to my post...though I am surprised that it took this long.

With that said I should point out that neither of the two sources I referenced were the Odets article, and while he also made mention of something similar I figured it wasn't in context with this question and left his review out...as far as his "slant" is concerened, again I fail to see why the reference as he wasn't cited, and also it depends on whom you talk to, personally I feel that given the sample he had his review was more honest than anything as he reported it like he saw it, and from the viewpoint of being a true enthusiast who put little weight into the brand name or not hurting anyone's feelings...

As for the movement itself, while as you say the part is easy to replace, the issue isn't with service but rather the damage that this design can, and does cause to the rest of the movement if left to its own devices, as I can safely say that replacing an entire movement plate for this type of damage wouldn't be cheap, but most Rolex owners don't care so...

Both sources I cited seem to be in agreement that a bearing mounted rotor would alleviate some if not all of this....but the issue is twofold, one the jewel mount and two the small diameter post..and last I checked they did use a Jewel bushing, hence the "red dust" from the Rotor jewel as cited in Andrew's review

And while the 3135 is considered robust it still doesn't mean that this isn't something that is a "concern" and also something that can possibly happen.
 

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Re: Is there any problems with the rotor arbor that causes permanent damage to movement pl

Hello Maverick,

As you are not surprised I posted a reply I am also not surprised you replied to my post...though I am surprised that it took this long.

With that said I should point out that neither of the two sources I referenced were the Odets article, and while he also made mention of something similar I figured it wasn't in context with this question and left his review out...as far as his "slant" is concerned, again I fail to see why the reference as he wasn't cited, and also it depends on whom you talk to, personally I feel that given the sample he had his review was more honest than anything as he reported it like he saw it, and from the viewpoint of being a true enthusiast who put little weight into the brand name or not hurting anyone's feelings...

As for the movement itself, while as you say the part is easy to replace, the issue isn't with service but rather the damage that this design can, and does cause to the rest of the movement if left to its own devices, as I can safely say that replacing an entire movement plate for this type of damage wouldn't be cheap, but most Rolex owners don't care so...

Both sources I cited seem to be in agreement that a bearing mounted rotor would alleviate some if not all of this....but the issue is twofold, one the jewel mount and two the small diameter post..and last I checked they did use a Jewel bushing, hence the "red dust" from the Rotor jewel as cited in Andrew's review

And while the 3135 is considered robust it still doesn't mean that this isn't something that is a "concern" and also something that can possibly happen.
Hi Mathew, maybe your memory needs some help. In the original discussion the "red dust" was explained as "rust" not residue from the jewel, which I thought was a bushing. Try this link and see if I am not correct.

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=msg&goto=1318576&rid=12981#msg_1318576

In a 3135 movement I doubt you will get any argument that the rotor is the weak point. However, the ball bearing race system mentioned by you is used in some new Rolex movements like the 4130.

Also, the rotor can only be a problem if it wears prematurely, before a recommended service. Obviously this is not the case since this movement has been in production for some time now w/o mass repairs.

Now if we took apart another movement from any manufacturer would we find something to criticize? I am sure any movement has a weak point or we would have the 'perfect' movement somewhere and I know of no such animal, do you?

Since I wear mine golfing, shooting and riding my Harley mine should wear the fastest. I'll post when the rotor breaks. ;-) Mathew, it's always nice to hear the flip side of the coin. :-d Regards,
=)
maverick
 

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Re: Is there any problems with the rotor arbor that causes permanent damage to movement pl

Hi Mathew, maybe your memory needs some help. In the original discussion the "red dust" was explained as "rust" not residue from the jewel, which I thought was a bushing. Try this link and see if I am not correct.

http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=msg&goto=1318576&rid=12981#msg_1318576
Hello Maverick,

I am only going off what the article says and illustrates, I also find it rather hard to believe that somehow rust formed on what is advertised as a truly waterproof case without causing other residual damage, also no where in that thread do I see Mr. Barbain acknowledge one posters assumption that the "red dust" is indeed a form of rust or corrosion. Rather I still feel that the article which I posted was correct in its conclusive findings, that the "red" rotor jewel when worn to the point of damaging the arbor will break down and form a red dust that dirties up the movement.

In a 3135 movement I doubt you will get any argument that the rotor is the weak point. However, the ball bearing race system mentioned by you is used in some new Rolex movements like the 4130.
Last I checked the 4130 is the only Rolex movement to feature a ball bearing race...why a company with their resources doesn't migrate this change across the line is beyond me as their customers are paying for "the best" and that is what they advertise to sell.

Also, the rotor can only be a problem if it wears prematurely, before a recommended service. Obviously this is not the case since this movement has been in production for some time now w/o mass repairs.
I wouldn't say it is "not the case" rather that it may happen and we just don't know, obviously it happened in the piece Mr. Barbain reviewed, and the results were catastrophic to the finish of the movement, something that will ultimately effect the collectability of the piece and might equal a high repair cost to the owner down the road when Rolex deems their mainplate has to be replaced.

Now if we took apart another movement from any manufacturer would we find something to criticize? I am sure any movement has a weak point or we would have the 'perfect' movement somewhere and I know of no such animal, do you?
Oh no doubt, but this topic specifically asked about a documented "feature" of the 31XX series of Rolex movements, and while it isn't "on topic" I have yet to see another movement that has a "known" issue where if you avoid service or something has a premature failure it is guaranteed to ruin the mainplate of the movement, that is unique to Rolex.

Since I wear mine golfing, shooting and riding my Harley mine should wear the fastest. I'll post when the rotor breaks. ;-) Mathew, it's always nice to hear the flip side of the coin. :-d Regards,
=)
On a side why am I not surprised that Rolex owners gravitate towards Harley :)~ I used to know alot of "bike guys" and the sentiment towards both brands amongst enthusiasts is generally the same. But as long as you enjoy it Mav that is all that matters.
 

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Re: Is there any problems with the rotor arbor that causes permanent damage to movement pl

Hello Maverick,

I am only going off what the article says and illustrates, I also find it rather hard to believe that somehow rust formed on what is advertised as a truly waterproof case without causing other residual damage, also no where in that thread do I see Mr. Barbain acknowledge one posters assumption that the "red dust" is indeed a form of rust or corrosion. Rather I still feel that the article which I posted was correct in its conclusive findings, that the "red" rotor jewel when worn to the point of damaging the arbor will break down and form a red dust that dirties up the movement.



Last I checked the 4130 is the only Rolex movement to feature a ball bearing race...why a company with their resources doesn't migrate this change across the line is beyond me as their customers are paying for "the best" and that is what they advertise to sell.



I wouldn't say it is "not the case" rather that it may happen and we just don't know, obviously it happened in the piece Mr. Barbain reviewed, and the results were catastrophic to the finish of the movement, something that will ultimately effect the collectability of the piece and might equal a high repair cost to the owner down the road when Rolex deems their mainplate has to be replaced.



Oh no doubt, but this topic specifically asked about a documented "feature" of the 31XX series of Rolex movements, and while it isn't "on topic" I have yet to see another movement that has a "known" issue where if you avoid service or something has a premature failure it is guaranteed to ruin the mainplate of the movement, that is unique to Rolex.



On a side why am I not surprised that Rolex owners gravitate towards Harley :)~ I used to know alot of "bike guys" and the sentiment towards both brands amongst enthusiasts is generally the same. But as long as you enjoy it Mav that is all that matters.
Hi Mathew, the only thing I disagree with is your comment on my statement that if this was a common problem we would know. I visit about 5 Rolex forums daily and have done so for years. I am sure if this was common we would know. Rolex owners always seem to post when their beauties break.

BTW, in my emails to Andrew he never stated he thought this was a real probelm in these movements, just the one he was working on.

As for the Harley, I bought my first bike, a HONDA, in 1966. Since then I have owned Yamahas, and a Kawasaki KZ1000. All these bikes have one thing in common. They are high rev, high end torque type engines.
I do not want that type of engine. I want a low end torque type bike which is comfy to cruise on the road. The Harley fits that to a tee with an 88 CI (1450cc) twin-V overhead cam engine. It's also a much more detailed and superior quality to previous motorcycles I have owned. It's made in Kansas, USA!

American made motorcycles are very good bikes. The 1920 Indian proved that. ;-) I'm done here Mathew. I think this thread has run it's course. Have a nice weekend. =) maverick

PS as for the red dust, I'll leave that to the watchmakers. :-d
 

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Re: Is there any problems with the rotor arbor that causes permanent damage to movement pl

Hi Mathew, the only thing I disagree with is your comment on my statement that if this was a common problem we would know. I visit about 5 Rolex forums daily and have done so for years. I am sure if this was common we would know. Rolex owners always seem to post when their beauties break.
Hey Mav,

I don't think I have to tell you but in my hayday of worshipping Rolex I used to visit at least that and the one constant was virtually none of the enthusiasts had much of a clue or a care as to what was going on inside their watches, so for all they knew this could have been happening, just not to the degree, and they never would have been the wiser. I have read more than a few posts of watches going in for similar service after about the same interval, but I figure most nowadays who post on the forums seem to get them worked on pretty regularly as they want to protect their "investment"

BTW, in my emails to Andrew he never stated he thought this was a real probelm in these movements, just the one he was working on.
He even alluded to this in his review, with proper service it won't be a problem, but it also isn't something that is as much of a conern in other watches given the design of their rotor mount which is pretty much my point.

As for the Harley, I bought my first bike, a HONDA, in 1966. Since then I have owned Yamahas, and a Kawasaki KZ1000. All these bikes have one thing in common. They are high rev, high end torque type engines.
I do not want that type of engine. I want a low end torque type bike which is comfy to cruise on the road. The Harley fits that to a tee with an 88 CI (1450cc) twin-V overhead cam engine. It's also a much more detailed and superior quality to previous motorcycles I have owned. It's made in Kansas, USA!
Like I said mav it is all about what you like and want, all I know is the majority of the guys I knew who were "into" bikes really had a strong distaste for the lack of reliability and the ridiculous cost and lack of performance with Harley, then again that was nearly ten years ago and they all loved high rev, high end torque crotch rockets...I myself wouldn't mind a Ducati.

Here is my favorite Harley article though by far...

http://www.goingfaster.com/angst/noharley2.html

PS as for the red dust, I'll leave that to the watchmakers. :-d
I thought that is what we did when we were looking at Mr. Barbain's review?? last I checked he was a watchmaker...

Oh well have a good weekend.
 

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Re: Is there any problems with the rotor arbor that causes permanent damage to movement pl

Hi Mathew, just FYI, that Harley article is quite old and written by one individual with an obvious bias. He is certainly an expert having owned a total of three motorcycles.:roll: It sounds like the type of article that would interest someone who has not ridden much or is just ignorant of what he/she is stating.

"Written by Christopher T. Shields, October 18, 1993. Updated with new items of relevant interest in the many years since. Bikes owned since original article was written include 1993 Honda VFR750F, 1995 Kawasaki Ninja ZX-6R and a 2004 Honda CBR600RR (currently owned and ridden)."

Mathew, your getting a little desperate with this poor supporting material. I have never found anything posted by you about anything what you DO like, only what you do not.

You go to Rolex forums and rip Rolex and have done so for years. I never understood why you do this. It seems a little self abusive IMHO.

BTW, I certainly WILL buy what I like, regardless of yours or anyone else's opinion. :-d =) maverick
 

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Re: Is there any problems with the rotor arbor that causes permanent damage to movement pl

Hi Mathew, just FYI, that Harley article is quite old and written by one individual with an obvious bias. He is certainly an expert having owned a total of three motorcycles.:roll: It sounds like the type of article that would interest someone who has not ridden much or is just ignorant of what he/she is stating.
Maverick, in no way did I say that the article was up to date or even written by someone "in the know", just that it was my favorite read on Harley...nothing more, nothing less. Also it doesn't say the guy has only owned three bikes, rather he owned three bikes since the article was authored, who knows what his experience was prior to writing it.

I honestly fail to see why it would only interest someone who is either ignorant or in experienced as I have met and befriended many avid bike enthusiasts in my "racing" days who echoed the same or a similar sentiment. And one should note that the site was updated September of last year, only a guess but possibly the authors thoughts on the subject haven't changed enough for him to ammend the article.

Mathew, your getting a little desperate with this poor supporting material. I have never found anything posted by you about anything what you DO like, only what you do not.
Come on Maverick, there are plenty of things which I do like, it's just "you Rolex guys" get so fixated on that which I "don't" like as it is typically is stuff you guys love and gravitate towards due to the brand appeal...great examples are Montblanc - I owned upward of twenty of those and like my Rolex expereince came to the rationalization that it was more sizzle than steak-still own two which were gifts from my wife, Mercedes due to their rather poor service record/reliability and higher cost than the competition, and Blose though I don't think much needs to be said there. Personally I don't really care about Harley one way or another but do know that many of my bike buddies (I was into cars) felt the same...

I used to love big brand names but now find they are almost always not "worth it" to me. I still have an affinity for fine watches, mostly Omega, IWC, JLC and Blancpain, love home audio brands such as Marantz, Athena, Definitive Tech, HSU... Really love Namiki, Aurora, Parker, Cross, and Pelikan pens, Pentax and some Nikon cameras, AMD processors, ATI video solutions, ...and as for autos Lexus, Infinity, Acura, sort of BMW but not most of their models, and a few Saab..and yes I post that I like these brands often, though I am less and less a "Brand" guy and more a product person, if something is from a good company and made well that trumps any brand affiliation I may or may not have.

And when talking desperate, take a look above and your replies to the Andrew Barbain review...you cite a random quote on another forum.

You go to Rolex forums and rip Rolex and have done so for years. I never understood why you do this. It seems a little self abusive IMHO.
Don't know if you were around for as long as I have been but many will tell you that for years I was one of, if not the biggest Rolex supporter, and in the days of other forums when it was taboo to be a die hard enthusiast of the brand...only with ownership of a few did my opinion sour. I post my opinons and experiences because they are just that...my opinions and experiences with a a brand and product, unfortunately they aren't positive but personally I view that as something Rolex could have and should have managed, however they didn't see it as important.

BTW, I certainly WILL buy what I like, regardless of yours or anyone else's opinion. :-d =) maverick
Never suggesting you shouldn't, just as I hope you know I will enjoy posting my personal opinion on said items regardless of who agrees or disagrees with my beliefs.
 

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Re: Is there any problems with the rotor arbor that causes permanent damage to movement pl

Have a nice day Mathew. I'm off to Vegas for a nice dinner and great show.
BTW, I'm glad you do like some things. :) =)maverick
 

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Re: Is there any problems with the rotor arbor that causes permanent damage to movement pl

Have a nice day Mathew. I'm off to Vegas for a nice dinner and great show.
BTW, I'm glad you do like some things. :) =)maverick
Have fun in Vegas, I have sort of wanted to go for a while but it isn't on my top list of things to do, and even lower now with the new baby...someday though as I have heard it can be a blast.

And yes, there are some things I do like, so it isn't like I am always negative...I just get sour when a brand or product I have high expectations for lets me down.
 

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Re: Is there any problems with the rotor arbor that causes permanent damage to movement pl

Have fun in Vegas, I have sort of wanted to go for a while but it isn't on my top list of things to do, and even lower now with the new baby...someday though as I have heard it can be a blast.

And yes, there are some things I do like, so it isn't like I am always negative...I just get sour when a brand or product I have high expectations for lets me down.
We saw the Phantom of the Opera at the Venetian and it was very good. Also I fell in love with this, no arbor problems here. ;-) =) maverick
BTW, Congrats on your new addition to the family.:-!
 

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Re: Is there any problems with the rotor arbor that causes permanent damage to movement pl

We saw the Phantom of the Opera at the Venetian and it was very good.
Are you already back? how close are you to vegas? and the Phantom must have been cool, I have yet to go to any good shows anywhere, most I have seen is the nutcracker (uugh) and Blue man group...

Also I fell in love with this, no arbor problems here. ;-) =) maverick
Yes, that patek is awesome, something I will most likely never be able to afford though I doubt even if I could that I could stomach the upkeep costs, if money was never an object though that along with Lange would be my two top condenders. Always laugh at the patek poster in the Subway though showing the Aquanaut as I never figure the people on that particular train are typical patek buyers considering the green line is one of Bostons worst lines...tourneau put it up to no surprise.\

BTW, Congrats on your new addition to the family.:-!
Thanks, we have had a few ups and downs but now things are getting much better, I thought with her my time vested in sites like this would decline but it seems with her sleeping so much and my not wanting to go out because of being worn out from keeping her happy the only thing I want to do is go online...I also wouldn't mind if my Sub could sell and take the difference between that and a PO and put it into her college account, but alas resale hasn't been in my favor with this one even after a major price increase, that and my wife still fumes over the thought of my selling yet another watch :)

Oh well good to hear your time in vegas was fun and look forward to seeing you around mav.
 
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