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Discussion Starter #1
I found this at the boot sale this morning not quite getting the importance in the early morning gloaming. It is running but needs a case and a seconds hand. I can probably get a hand without too much trouble, but a case for a lever set movement like this could be a bit trickier.
So, some questions:
Is it a small pocket watch movement or a wristwatch?
Has anyone any info about it that they would be willing to share?
Or perhaps a link to some?
Would it be worth trying to make into a wristwatch?
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S and Co, Peerless and IWC seem to go hand-in-hand in the few ads for sale on ebay. I don't know whether to sell or keep. Have any of my thread-pals any thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
A little more research gives a date of 1901 for a savonette style watch of 12.5 ligne which looks about right. The fourth wheel is missing its pinion for the seconds hand so this may take a while to track down. It has a Fabrique d'Horlogerie number of 224 just in case anyone has one laying around that they don't need.
This is a bit of a scary project in that it is an order of magnitude or two bigger in importance than that which I normally tinker with, still, if you don't try.........
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
It feels very classy but that could just be me "projecting".
Polished the yellow crystal up and it looks much better but then read that these old plastics exude chlorine and flourine which turn into acid in contact with moisture and attack just about anything; cheery news. Leave the case open when possible, I guess, until the new crystal arrives.
The winding stem has a square cross section end, so I cannot attach a normal crown, which will mean coming up with a new stem or perhaps winding with a key or something else: We'll see. At the moment winding is done very carefully with a screwdriver via the crown wheel with just enough turns to run for a few hours, so there is the very least resistance while winding.
The fourth wheel and pinion has arrived from the Tocdoc - brilliant man and service. I'd barely sent off the payment and there it was on my doormat, packaged to survive a nuclear explosion - so major disassembly is imminent. I'll try to post some interesting photos. It's always a good idea to take photos anyhow, to help remember where all the bits go.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
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So....
Obviously, when you get an opportunity like this, reading around the new subject turns up a lot of stuff you didn't know. The marks on the balance side of the movement are PEERLESS and S&Co along with the number 247354. Schaffhausen, where IWC were based, and Stauffer and co - the makers of PEERLESS watches, are separated by 200 kms.
Stauffer were a big company with trade all over the British Empire and when they ran out of their own movements they bought in from IWC and others. A deal of confusion is sown by people thinking that PEERLESS, Stauffer and IWC are basically all the same company, but unless the movement is marked IWC there is a very good chance that a mistake has been made. I, being the lucky bas**rd that I am, have managed to get hold of a marked IWC movement.


As it stands this pm....
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I've spent a good part of the morning sorting out a crown and a pusher for the little darling. The pusher was simply a panel pin filed down, cut and polished to fit into the hole at the 4 o'clock position. Its held in by the contact with the lever inside.
The crown was a bit more lateral, thinking-wise.
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The original case for the watch, back in the distant past, had a crown and part-stem attached to the case.The shaft that the clutch slides along slides into and out of the fixed crown. My case from the internet does not have the facility for such niceties so I had to fashion the neck of an old crown into a square that would slide onto the clutch shaft.
Turned out more simple than I thought it would be, and with the crown squared and then squeezed just a fraction to provide an interference fit I now have watch which I can wind by the crown and also set the time.
The new uncoloured crystal lacks the character of the old yellow one but makes up for it by being a new and unblemished. I think the watch looks a bit classier now.
I realise that my approach to this appears somewhat spendthrift (to put it politely) but there is reason for this that I will reveal when I am satisfied with the result.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
SAM_8959.JPG Well, this might be...(choke)... The Last Post..... (stirring, melancholy trumpet plays in the background)...... about this watch, certainly for a while. The Tokdok has provided an excellent service, taking a fourth wheel out of a cal 64 that he had, and sending it. My watch doesn't fit the cal 64 part sent and subsequent dialogue suggests complications and disappointment for me in the near future in the search, so a change of tack is required. In the mean time I have affixed a sub-seconds just to fill the hole, and ordered a slightly better strap.
Questions obviously remain: the "dateyouriwc" site throws up the info given and yet the parts don't fit; Why?
Wtf am I going to do about it and where do I start?
Has anyone got a pile of old fourth wheels that I can trawl through?
Do you feel sorry for me?

The answer to the last should be a declamatory "NO!" This watch is now working and adorning my wrist and it makes me feel like a prince. It is accurate to within 30 seconds a day, and I can now wind it and change the time as I should be able. It is startlingly attractive and not in a mysterious way but intimately, because I know it inside-out. It obviously retains some mystery which the above questions hopefully, when answered, will address.
Now the kicker in the "Don't feel sorry for me" thing: The movement cost me £2; the case £12; the new crystal £2; total £16, plus a few hours of my free time.. I've got to say that I think that is money well spent.

This is not the end of the story. Stay tuned......occasionally.
 

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I guess there is no chance that you could add the sub-seconds post to the existing fourth wheel? It seems I have read about this in old watchmaking books/courses - but I don't remember much about it.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I'd be interested to know how to do that. The pinion has sheared/broken just above the level of the jewel so there is nothing to attach a new post to, and nothing to attach a seconds hand with a longer tube to. I've been examining the structure of the wheel; how leaves and wheels are attached to the staff but messing with this seems a bit beyond my extant talents.
I have been thinking that there can only be a very finite number of ways to get the necessary gearing ratios, in the given amount of space for each calibre of movement, to provide for mass manufacture of movements that can be used by different companies to deliver basically the same product, but this way madness seems to lie.
The evenings curry and lager(s) suggest I should leave it at that before I say anything really stupid, but I really appreciate your interest - Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
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Last Post! Ha! What's the point of that?
The strap hitherto attached was ratty but had metal reinforcements and so gave a feeling of security; still ratty, though. This old leather Streamline deployment came off my Joel chrono which I have been shamefully neglecting of late, so I have swapped the straps and an old Bonklip now adorns the Joel and the Streamline fits my IWC just perfectly.
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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
You'll laugh..
That's rhetorical; It's me laughing, after all, there might be no-one else there.....
IWC cal 64 12.5"',according to Ranftt, invariably have a height of 4.1 mm. IWC cal 63 12.5"', however, mostly have a height of 4.1mm with the exception of the cal 63 12.5"' mod 1894 which has a height of 4.7mm. Now, if I had a Cal 63 12.5 1894 which is 4.7mm high, the fourth wheel from a cal 64 would not be long enough, would it? it would not bridge the required gap, would it? It would be about .6mm too short. But how could the IWC data-base show my watch as a cal 64 if it is a cal 63?
Just musin' and that.......
Later thoughts:
I guess what I should do is take it apart and measure it. That would sort of definitively answer that question. Duh!!!!
 

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Well...I am not able to locate the reference in any of my material. It may have been related to re-pivoting a train wheel - which basically involves facing off the old one, center drilling the pinion and staking a newly turned piece. Maybe it would be worthwhile to post it as a question over in the watchmaking forum. There are some seriously skilled folks over there that probably haven't seen this thread - but would have valuable input.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
That is a thought, although a slightly scary one. I'm sitting on this at the moment, allowing percolation to occur, and hoping.....
In the meanst..
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This old strap came in the post with (most of) an old watch attached and I do like the feel of the ensemble...
 

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Discussion Starter #17
and so it started.
IWC meant nothing to me before this serendipitous find at a boot sale, then, out of nowhere, it has taken over my life.

I suppose one can only make big mistakes if the stakes are high; if the watches are expensive. In the not-too-distant past I spent a significant (to me) amount on an Omega Constellation Pie pan with cross-hairs and arrow head markers. It turned out not to be quite the bargain I thought it was; oh, the watch was an Omega, the pieces were Omega, it's just that the various components had started out in different watches, and then topped off with a a not-so-great redial. Lack of research and too much blind, blundering enthusiasm. I'll not make that mistake again........

..until the next time.
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To be continued
 

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Discussion Starter #18
It pushed all of my buttons at once: Size, small; Shape, sort-of hexagonal - I had just been in a relationship with a small, hexagonal, tre-tacche Rotary, which had left an imprint in my psyche for a paradigm of elegance, which this little watch filled beautifully. My recent paddle in the IWsea with the 64 and influence of the Rotary combined in a heady flourish, which left me little alternative but to bid for this as soon as I became aware of it.
The listing said it had issues but I foolhardily assumed I could overcome them. My blood, my body and my brain told me I should have this, and after that assault there was little of me left to argue about practicalities, so, £300 - and a nail-biting week watching to see if anybody else would bid - later I am the owner of an expensive watch, which doesn't work, and is old and unusual enough to make parts for it almost extinct.....Triffic.

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On the plus side: the case is gorgeous. Fully marked with the IWC probus mark and silver hallmarks etc. The balance, a Breguet overcoil is as good as it can be, both working and symmetrical with no radical adjustment already dialled in. There is no rust or any visible damage and the movement number dates it to 1925 as a Savonne. cal 76 - 10 ligne. So far, so good.
The down side is that the keyless works are a graunchy, inoperable mash of slipping cogs, sliding gears and teeth-grinding..er..teeth. The ebay listing said that it might need re-bushing and I am beginning to see what he meant. However, there is no point in guessing, so careful disassembly is started, with the £300 crow sitting on my shoulder, watching every movement of screwdriver and tweezers, and waiting for any mistake I am inexperienced enough to make.
The winding pinion and the clutch are present and appear worn but undamaged and slide along the stem as they should as far as I can see, but the clutch lever and spring don't move the clutch far enough to wind the centre gears or move it the other way to engage with the winding pinion. Nothing can be done without further disassembly so onward...
Removing the three bridge screws allows the barrel bridge assembly to be removed as a whole which is a soul-lifting revelation in as much as it saves a lot of work each time and lessens the chances of making a mistake, which is always a positive, and that reveals what may be the source of the problem: the method that IWC employed for winding and setting was slightly different in the early days. To wind the mainspring the winding pinion engages with the large gear wheel under the bridge plate as seen in the photo just below the barrel. This is held in place by a screw which has a counterclockwise thread and surprise, surprise! at some stage in its history this has been undone in the wrong direction which has neatly sheared it in two. Consequently the whole winding gear wheel pivots and offers no grip for the winding pinion. (Quite difficult to explain without being there and probably almost impossible to understand from my ramblings - Sorry.)
The gear is removed and the broken parts of screw coaxed out. A replacement screw (not perfect at the head but workable) is introduced and then the gear reassembled. Weyy-hey! I think. Here we go..
No. I guess the screw must have been broken before when they took the watch apart to find out why it wasn't working, so we have to go further back, to the reason for the reason, as it were.
Concurrent to all this, which takes place over a week or so, I am watching ebay for cal 76 spares just in case. Propinquity rears its perfectly permed head and winks in my direction. Behold! a cal 76 part movement with no balance or dial but with a perfect keyless works. I pinch myself to reassure myself that I am conscious and living in the correct universe and then proceed to do some very careful ebay"watching". Days pass; the opening price of £5 remains unraised (is that a word?); I sweat and wake up in the middle of the night to check; I watch. The auction finishes on a Saturday. I finish work on the Friday before with one day to go. I check the listing before driving home and .......it has finished! I can't believe it! The vendor must have sold it off-site because there was no interest. But there was: MEEEE!!! ARSE!n wenger, I think as I drive home. That's not all but you get the gist. I rush to my computer and dash off a very polite email to the vendor inquiring as to the reason for the premature cessation of the listing - very polite, but typed with shaking hands. He responds a day later, saying that he finished the listing because he realised that he would not be able to send it off as required because he was going on holiday. He still has the 76 and will relist when he returns.
Well, .....the sun comes out, birds commence to sing, food tastes better, my piano playing sounds like Chopin ( strange that last one because I can't play and don't have a piano). I send a pathetically plaintive, almost - no , actually - begging email to the guy asking if we can come to some sort of mutually beneficial arrangement when he returns. And then I just sit back and wait for him to have had his fill of sunshine and the good life, and get back to the important stuff;
the stuff that impinges on me.
So, two weeks after the initial disappointment, on Friday afternoon again, and again as I have just finished work, I check emails and ebay, and find a mail saying he has just relisted. I quickly swap to ebay and find the 76 there ready to be bought. Two quick presses and it is mine. Sun, birds, food,piano etc all over again.
I message the vendor thanking him, saying I have bought it. He comes back with a message saying he will post it that day - brilliant man - and by Saturday morning I have it in my hands. It's like GoT but more exciting and with fewer dragons.
That was the day before yesterday. Yesterday I spent a sizeable part of the afternoon, having cleared the decks of chores in the morning, in the correct frame of mind for approaching the unknown.
It took time. Some of the screws are as small as a grain of sand. Some things aren't the same shape because of wear. Some things just need twenty minutes thought before blundering in. Some things are just downright weird.
But......
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how it started...
And now....
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It runs, it sets, it winds. I'm not sure what more I could ask.

One of the cosmetic niggles was the long minutes hand with just a huge (!?) expanse of lume. It looked incongruous against the elegant cathedralness of the hour hand. I will look around for a better matched pair, but in the meantime I have put a couple of "bars" in along the length of the minute hand with a magic marker.

Thanks for your attention if you have made it this far.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
So I thought....

It did wind, and I could set the time, for about an hour. Then I couldn't. The crown revolved but there was no winding;the crown came out, when pulled, but there was no adjusting the hands - they were immobile. The problem that had caused the problem (see earlier) had perhaps reared its head again. Of course, there is no way to tell by either just looking and thinking or swearing and drinking so once more into the (tiny) breach..etc.
After a while, assembling and disassembling, greasing , cleaning and, tbh, looking and thinking AND swearing and drinking, it started to dawn on me that the clutch activation lever could be at, or near, the root of the problem.
This little lever was moving out of the plane that it was meant to be in after a few activations. Consequently the spring running in the groove on the clutch wheel was slipping out of the groove and holding the clutch in the wrong position on the stem. All very interesting, but why? and what caused it?
It took a while for me to realise that the small "L" shaped activating lever was sitting next to a minuscule fault in the case. Right next to the lever was a very, very small mound of metal that must have been there from the original casting. As the lever moved when pulled by the crown/stem one end of the "L" was riding up onto this small fault and as a consequence the other end was moving down and losing contact with the clutch spring. I spent a while just looking at this to make sure that I was understanding what was happening, and a while longer getting the courage to level this little mound with the end of a very small sharpened screwdriver.
The crow shuffled around on my shoulder and then settled down again...waiting. SAM_9063.JPG

You can just see the little lump between the lever and the crown.
 
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