Arguably hundreds of years of cultural development comes through in their products, in this case watches. Personally I would rather look at something designed by French, Spanish or Italian, Japanese and German have less aesthetic appeal to me. Look back at second world war airplanes, hardly purposely stylish but the national heritage is very obvious in the appearance. Cars are probably the most available representation of national culture and for some reason I keep thinking about a Nissan GTR compared to the Porsche 911 and that I would pay for the Porsche any day strictly because it pleases my eyes. But back to watches Selko or Sinn don't evoke heaps of passion... or do they?

 

if you were to ask me "quickly, differences between Japanese and German watches" my off the top of my head response would be Japanese: sleek, curvy, sexy, beautiful mirror polished surfaces and German: bigger, bold, "toolish", industrial, strength...just my .02

 

i do not think japanese and german designs are that much different. Or i'd rather say that they come to the same results by starting from different assumptions. where japanese design favors the "Less is more" approach ( a truly minimalistic style) i would say the germans tend to prefer an " enough is enough " attitude. ( by the way, i worked seven years for a japanese company before switching to a german firm...this approach is not only on watches).The main difference is that japanese designs favor the curved line where germans go for a straight one. squared over radiused edges, flat over round surfaces.

why people tend to modify seikos instead of sinns, then? i think it'a just a matter of price and exclusivity. a minimalistic watch has no distinctive style, no striking feature,so if you like to have something more unique you can play with it.

A sinn is expensive. if you realize you do not bond with it's extreme "toolness" you flip it and get your money back.

 

Japanese divers seem to have OBNOXIOUS DAY DATE DISPLAYS seemingly as long as it took to type it there. If not, they tend to have a big cube cut out at the 3 o'clock position on the diver. These large and/or predictable date displays detract from the aesthetic in my view. Additionally, for some reason, they all seem to look generic in an odd sort of way.

German designs with stark contrasts between white and black open, with spaces punctuated with details, seem to have less unnecessary things cluttering the dial, which I greatly prefer. They also tend to not be as likely to let the date intrude on the dial design.

An anecdotal case study: Seiko Marinemaster vs. Stowa Seatime

I marvel over how people are really excited about the Seiko Marinemaster. To me it looks just like all the other Japanese divers, except it is better made than most in each area. While I do not doubt for a second doubt the quality of the watch, it is almost generic in overall impression, almost like clone of cheaper Japanese divers, even though it obvious is an unique watch. It is clearly better in quality at every point than cheaper Japanese divers, yet the impression it gives me is largely the same. Intrusive/prominent day-date display window, or cubic but prominent date window (depending on model). You end up with an excellent, yet generic looking dial on the diver.

Now I look at the StowaSeatime. Original or unique looking, the dial is left a bit more open. Therefore, what is on the dial jumps out at you and becomes more memorable somehow. Another example to me is the Sinn U1, quite unique looking, stark contrast between black and white. Because of the space allowed to exist, what is there almost jumps out at you. Notice the subtle date displays, as opposed to pronounced ones.

This is just my two cents, I expect the legions of Seiko fans to jump in here and crush me like stampeding Sumos or Monsters... ;-)

 

This is just my two cents, I expect the legions of Seiko fans to jump in here and crush me like stampeding Sumos or Monsters...]

I won't crush you as I am a fan of both the Germans and Japanese. The three watches I regret flipping the most are the MM300, Seatime and U1. Your comment about the plainness of Seiko divers is interesting as many could say the same about Rolex, and the case designs of the higher end Seiko's are a study of interesting curves and finishes. It seems the goal is extreme legibility here and the Japanese dials are dressier while the Germans more minimalist and austere. Both highly functional and precise. Many of the Germans seem to follow the Bauhaus tradition of highly functional, rational design, while the Japanese are more expressionistic. As an Architect I can respect both directions when done well.

The day date issue bugs me as we'll. but they are not on most of Seikos mid level and high end divers.

But back to watches Selko or Sinn don't evoke heaps of passion... or do they?

Spent much time here? Seiko and Sinn have legions of passionate fans.

 

I prefer to have the Japanese's day windows, however distracting those may be.

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In watches (and interestingly, cars) I find the the Japanese design ethic that is so representational in other design fields not always present. This may, in part, stem from a national attitude of taking what is seen as the best and "improving" it, rather than uniquely creating in a vacuum.

The Germans seem to know who they are in regards to their design ethic and this comes across in most of their timepieces. They seem less interested in what others think, and more inwardly focused.

As for why the more unique watches flip more often...that is a universal design principle. The "different" is not as embraced as the "common". "Common" things are safe. People are used to them and they are therefore less jarring. This principle drives me crazy as a graphic designer... Most people fear imaginative solutions, either because they fear that they won't "fit in" by adopting them or because they find the visual differences unsettling as they are not used to seeing them.

In the end I think most people want to be different, but after a while many realize they are more comfortable with a more orthodox watch design.

 

Hmm, both interesting points and yes, I did figure that the old MM300 debate would come into play. Fair comments about the generic nature of the Seiko divers watch dial and design except....that is kind of the point. Seiko divers have 'design lineage' - they have a place within a broader history of their divers but no doubt, they definitely share design elements across their history and amongst their current range. I like that though. It puts my watch in context.

Not sure about the German ones though. Maybe too stark.



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Hmm, both interesting points and yes, I did figure that the old MM300 debate would come into play. Fair comments about the generic nature of the Seiko divers watch dial and design except....that is kind of the point. Seiko divers have 'design lineage' - they have a place within a broader history of their divers but no doubt, they definitely share design elements across their history and amongst their current range. I like that though. It puts my watch in context.

Not sure about the German ones though. Maybe too stark.

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Like your comments regarding context. Stowa has a long history as well and the Seatime takes question from vintage Seatimes. Most other Stowa's however seem to be more homages to vintage Stowa's. Sinn has history, although the U series divers are a recent design as Sinn started as a Pilot watch company.

 

Two Cents from my Collection ...

Japanese Beauty ...

And The German Beast ... [ Better Pictures promised .. for a bit later ]

 

I personally find German watches to look "generic" rather than Japanese [read: Seiko for the predetermined bent of the subject toward said brand by the OP]. German watches like Sinn just look plain... well... boring to me. Seiko [I mean Japanese watches], as has been said, have a design lineage that shapes their modern offerings. As a lover of things vintage, I appreciate the link to the past in case designs.

BUT, you know what? I'm not going to say folks who love German watches are "wrong" while I'm "right". That we all appreciate different things is to be applauded! I just have my taste and stick to it!

Randy

 

This is a very interesting topic. My current watches all have german cases, so I guess my preference is clear, although I've never really thought about why.

I've driven German cars for 30 years, even though Japanese cars are arguably more practical and reliable. I've just never liked Japanese designs. My wife laughs at me because my technical term for Japanese car design is "swoopy". I prefer a more sedate design I guess.

I've never really related this to watches, but now that I think about it, I find Japanese watches kind of swoopy too. Rounded edges and such. I just prefer the more industrial, serious look of a German watch.

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Hmm, I'm not sure how to characterise 'swoopy'. Do you mean kind of light on design or with thin edges or too much curve on the case? Less austere maybe, definately less squared or hard edges. One of my pet peeves on most of my Swiss watches is their tendency to have hard, sharp edges on caseback and case. Precise, certainly, but hard to wear. Not so comfortable on a long run or during hours in the water.

 

By Swoopy, I mean lots of rounded edges. To me,Japanese cars (not all of course, I'm generalizing) have too many round bulges here and there. Often I find the designs interesting initially, but look dated very soon. When I think of Japanese watches,I think of Seiko, since I think that's all I've really had,and I think of the rounded edges of say an SKX007. And I actually like the 07, but in the end I do prefer a more precise edge.

 

Great post OP. And all in between have made good points too!
It is particularly interesting to me since I own Japanese and Swiss watches, but drive Japanese and German.

In both cases it seems to me the Japanese product is more conservative. I describe my Toyota as vanilla, the best vanilla on the planet, but vanilla.
Whereas the Omega and BMW both have more daring and extravagance.
I bought the Omegas and left them alone. Partly because of the lack of mod parts and the risk of messing up an expensive watch. But mostly because they are perfect (IMHO) as they are.
But I bought the Seikos and had mods planned before they arrived.
And to illustrate:

and

vs

and

 

When I look at German watches like Sinn and Stowa, they look over-built and stout. There is a remarkable amount of attention that went into assembly that screams "rigidity". Drawing a comparison to an automobile:

Sinn U2:
- Submarine Steel Body
- Argon Gas / Capsules

It's unique...it looks outstanding on paper and for most, will live a life as a desk diver where the technology/components will never get tested. The same could be said for the heated cup warmers inside a Mercedes Benz. They sound great...seldom used, and when they refuse to turn off (most Benzs are prone to electric issues) and drain your batteries...just like the Argon Gas and Capsules, few (outside of the manufacturer) will service it.

With Seiko, they shine when they slightly bend convention. Crown at four, unique bevels/finishing on the case, unique notching on the bezel, etc. Sometimes Seiko gets a little brainy and ends up making a Toyota Prius (Astron) or they over-think/over-design with their "-tura" line.

 

Based on what I have read on this thread, it seems the posters generally agree that the German watches are over engineered while the Japanese are like their nerdy, gadget-like counterparts. Now I'm curious as to what your opinions are on the Seiko SBDX011, perhaps the single most over engineered watch in Seiko's Prospex line. They also have a reputation of very conservative depth rating. For all we know the SBDX011's 1000m rating could withstand far more pressure than that.

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There's a lot to say here and many angles to discuss but my perception is:

Japanese design:

German design:

German design generally is rationalistic,is greatly influenced by the Bauhaus movement of the 30's and values functionalism over form.
I'm not too well read up on Japanese Design language but would say notions such as "Kawai", "Amae" generally come in to the process.
That's where all the cute looking furry telephones, manga inspired hifi systems etc come from. On the other hand without a doubt Japan also has a huge history and accumulated tradition. Their solid wood joined furniture that doesn't use adhesives, steel craftsmanship and heritage are without a match.
There are many lovers of the quirky "kawaii" style, IMHO Seiko would do better if they abandoned that train of thought.
The Ananta is a good example of a good Japanese watch true to its heritage:

Look at the side of those lugs, Woof! more of this please.

Apart from grand Seiko's i generally find Japanese watch dials too busy to read, TMI on them.

I think Japanese design fails when it tries to sell the "western culture" style, a good example would be the meaningless English text such as "high precision audio equipment" that used to be stamped on Pioneer hi-fi systems. Western culture is cool and different for the Japanese, (just like how some people in the west get Japanese character tattoos) But whenever one culture adopts cues from other cultures, applies it to their arts and crafts, it can never be quite the same as the original inspiration, this is why certain japanese products may appear idiosyncratic in the west.
Japan should only bother with selling items inspired by their original culture to the west, Muji is a good example, Honda is usually good too, they do their own thing and i appreciate them more for that.

On the other hand german design work can appear too sterile, too flawless. This can be disconcerting for some.

 

This has proven to be quite an interesting thread. The Japanese have often been accused of focusing so much on details that they loose sight of the big picture (anyone who has lived in Japan or driven on Japanese roads will know what I mean). I'm not sure that that is the case with their watches though. The Anata above is a good example of form as well as function. I definately agree with TMR above that the essence of the Japanese aesthetic can be lost in the translation (to use a much coined phrase) to western culture/ language. I think the use of western phrases can clutter the otherwise simple design. For the most part though, Japanese design speaks to me of refinement and considered effect rather than boldness of shape or form. There was a review of a dress Grand Seiko in here somewhere that compared it to a co-axe Omega and I think was spot on in its reference to the use of reflected light for effect. I find German designs often draw light in, whereas the Japanese (even the SKX007 with it's beveled crystal edge) tend to alter the shape of or reflect the light. I ask myself, why did Citizen put a red minute hand and a chrome edged hour hand on the Excalibur? I think to provide a subtle reflective contrast to the light absorbing effect of the matte dial. That's what I mean by considered effect. That said, I'm playing the devils advocate in this thread. I think that there is an equal draw to absorbing as well as reflecting light.

 

How can you lump them into meaning one thing? I mean with German design alone, you have different ends of the spectrum, like saying A. Lange 31 looks anything like a Sinn U1. A German watch has to be stark, and toolish and nothing else. Langes and GO's look pretty nice to me. Like saying all Japenese watches has to be cheap quartz pieces. Simply can't lump things under just one design umbrella.

 

Of course there are outliers, but there certainly are trends with Japanese and German watches, especially with divers which seems to be the focus of this thread. Even GO and Langes tend to have a no-nonsense crispness to the designs. Especially when compared to a Citizen Campanola.

 

I realise that there are great watches made in Germany and Japan that defy this kind of characterisation but I am talking about the general in this thread - about the feeling of the designs broadly rather than specifically. I'm interested in peoples opinions on the matter.

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I realise that there are great watches made in Germany and Japan that defy this kind of characterisation but I am talking about the general in this thread - about the feeling of the designs broadly rather than specifically. I'm interested in peoples opinions on the matter.

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In that case, I think it's going to stereotype the people/cultures themselves in a inadvertent kind of way. Japanese; known to be complex and dependable / German; very purposeful, no-nonsense, attention to detail minded. Both known for quality engineering. Could some of that translate to the watches each put out.... in some respects, sure.

 

This is an interesting topic.
(I wonder, however, why Japanese vs German, and not, eg, Japanese vs Swiss or Japanese vs Russian, etc.)
I myself kind of 'sense' a divide between Japanese and, say, European aesthetics, but only when thinking about watches as a sum, mass, whole.
But 'sense' is the most I can claim. With such broad ranges of mix-and-match products, when presented with a new watch model, clean, unbranded and 'unmarked', not having obvious cultural references or indications, I don't think I would be able to tell for sure where it belongs.
That said, I do not agree with the generalisation "German=toolish, Japanese=artsy". If I was to generalise on this, I'd rather say that Japanese watch industry is more high-tech and excellence driven, while German -- more tradition and luxury driven.

 

Wow, this is getting interesting. Let me explain that I chose Japanese and German watches because they seem to be the most polarising and because some people have expressed more ambivalence about them than other designs. Me too for that matter. I've had a couple of Sinns, worn my friend's Nomos and have had tons of Japanese watches. Sometimes I really like them, sometimes not at all. There is no middle ground for me. Wondering if others felt the same.

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